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What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

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Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#471

Post by rad_gruchalski »

mrjin wrote: post #446
class3shock wrote: post #269

"But the average employee assigned to the 737 program has been at Boeing just five years, according to a longtime Boeing executive who is involved in various efforts to save the company; for comparison’s sake, he says the average employee assigned to the 777 program had between 15 and 20 years under their belt." It don't think it's possible to overstate how bad, and sad, of a state of affairs that is. I've never seen…

Engineering is not only about know what to do, but also what not to do, and imho, knowing what not to do is way more important. Those C*O without an engineering background probably could not recognize that, but even they do, they probably don't care neither. Early career staffs are not only more energetic but also much cheaper comparing to those veterans in the field. Replacing those know what not to do with younger…

> Early career staffs are not only more energetic but also much cheaper comparing to those veterans in the field.

They're also easier to persuade and coerce into doing something a person with a longer carrier would have never done.

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#472

Post by shiroiushi »

samatman wrote: post #265
autokad wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a lot of people say things like 'stock price', but that's missing the point. the lesson is in the nuance. its many factors, effecting all aspects of our lives now honestly. - young people's disregard for the knowledge of people older than them. This can be an essay in itself, but there's the idea that the reasons why people are doing things the way they are is because they are stupid, something like: "you are young a…

> I had a friend do a start up to make bourbon in 3 months. He thought all those alcohol producers that take 5-30 years making them were doing it wrong. I am like, definitely give it a go but understand that "I am sure they thought about this'. I realize this is focusing on the example, but no, established bourbon distillers aren't going to stop barrel aging. It's part of the brand, it's part of what people pay for,…

I was going to make a comment along these lines. I don't know much about bourbon, but as an alcoholic drink, basically it's relying on chemical reactions to create the final product. The current way of making it, which takes a lot of time, has been designed by trial-and-error over many, many generations, as with most alcoholic drinks, and this was mostly done in times before we understood the science of chemistry.

It should be certainly possible (I'm not sure how) to replicate this process in a speedier way.

However, I think the thing being missed by the start-up guy is that, like Louis Vitton crap and genuine De Beers diamonds, most people aren't looking for something that replicates the "genuine" product, they want "the real thing" because there's some kind of emotional factor in owning some massively overpriced shirt made by sweatshop workers and sold in a fancy store by appointment, or a rock that was really dug out of the ground by an enslaved child in Africa. I suspect barrel-aged bourbon is similar.

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#473

Post by [deleted] »

makerdiety wrote: post #262
smsm42 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say it like "anxiety" and "stress" are synonymous to suicidal. I am a pretty anxious person, and sometimes have a lot of stress at work, and experienced burnout in the past too. That doesn't mean I am about to shoot myself in a motel parking lot - or anywhere else, for that matter. This binary view of mental health - either a person is "healthy" which means 100% perfect, or he's not - and then anything can be exp…

Stress and anxiety make you more vulnerable to bad decisions like suicide. Stop trying to turn stress and anxiety into an aesthetic personality trait and fashionable dress. Mental illness is not a dress that you can wear. It's toxic stuff to get rid of or at least mitigate.

[deleted]

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#474

Post by magnetowasright »

lozenge wrote: post #111
proc0 wrote: post #5

> Swampy believed relying on mechanics to self-inspect their work was not only insane but illegal This sounds like the changes that have taken place in the software industry in the past 10-20 years. Engineers are meant to do much more than engineering, including testing their own software, managing project timelines, etc., however with software nobody dies, you just get crappy software that constantly breaks and need…

> however with software nobody dies Eh, not a good hard-and-fast rule. Fujitsu's Horizon software drove some of its users to suicide.

Australia's robodebt scheme also caused suicides, but unlike the Fujitsu horizon shenanigans, the suffering was largely the point of robodebt

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#475

Post by ClumsyPilot »

gosub100 wrote: post #455
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> streets of San Francisco smell a LOOOT better What happened to all the public toilets in US/UK? I remember there being many more, am I hallucinating this? Many 2nd world countries still have them, for good reason!

People defile them, use them for shelters, or drug ingestion stations. There's no innovative way to solve homelessness. It's an insidious problem that defies any method to redress. Any angle you try to approach it from will be abused or defeated in some way.

I am sorry but I don’t think you realise how ridiculous this sounds to someone not from the west.

See, while India is building public toilets and becoming more civilised, we, with this attitude, are moving in the opposite direction.

If we can manage to maintain a toilet in Russia and India, 1st world countries somehow cannot - that’s just a statement of social distinction.

> use them for shelters, or drug ingestion stations

I mean yes, dealing with that is the basic responsibility of running a toilet

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#476

Post by sampo »

rdtsc wrote: post #195

> The day after Broken Dreams premiered, Swampy got an email informing him that he’d been put on a 60-day corrective action plan four weeks earlier. His alleged offense constituted using email to communicate about process violations That is pretty shady. They didn't want to discuss violations in emails so it doesn't end up in a court case or found by the FAA during an investigation. > the longtime former Boeing execu…

> I am kind of surprised various executives don't order hits on each other more often.

Here is one case where it actually happened:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/xu-yao-death-sentence-poisoning...

https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202403/22/WS65fd50dea31082fc...

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#477

Post by scotty79 »

mrjin wrote: post #446
class3shock wrote: post #269

"But the average employee assigned to the 737 program has been at Boeing just five years, according to a longtime Boeing executive who is involved in various efforts to save the company; for comparison’s sake, he says the average employee assigned to the 777 program had between 15 and 20 years under their belt." It don't think it's possible to overstate how bad, and sad, of a state of affairs that is. I've never seen…

Engineering is not only about know what to do, but also what not to do, and imho, knowing what not to do is way more important. Those C*O without an engineering background probably could not recognize that, but even they do, they probably don't care neither. Early career staffs are not only more energetic but also much cheaper comparing to those veterans in the field. Replacing those know what not to do with younger…

> what not to do

I think that's the unique skill that old and experienced people bring.

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#478

Post by lenkite »

Jensson wrote: post #464
ignoramous wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Purging elder employees is the logical result of making the employer pay for the health care of their employees. The now-elder employee gave their best and healthy years to the company and its mission.

Which is why healthcare and pension shouldn't be paid by the employer, employers shouldn't be punished for keeping old people around. If someone doubled the workers salary to leave you wouldn't say "but the company loyally gave you a job for 10 years, how can you desert them?", same thing here. We should incentivize companies to do the right thing, not punish them for it.

Doubt anything at Boeing would have changed if everyone had state healthcare. These pernicious decisions weren't driven by healthcare at all. Younger employees can be more easily coerced to an executive's vision, forced to break compliance laws and also be paid lesser than senior folks.

This is the terrible rot of modern business culture - all driven by short-term profit making at the cost of long-term sustainability.

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#479

Post by bilvar »

mrjin wrote: post #446
class3shock wrote: post #269

"But the average employee assigned to the 737 program has been at Boeing just five years, according to a longtime Boeing executive who is involved in various efforts to save the company; for comparison’s sake, he says the average employee assigned to the 777 program had between 15 and 20 years under their belt." It don't think it's possible to overstate how bad, and sad, of a state of affairs that is. I've never seen…

Engineering is not only about know what to do, but also what not to do, and imho, knowing what not to do is way more important. Those C*O without an engineering background probably could not recognize that, but even they do, they probably don't care neither. Early career staffs are not only more energetic but also much cheaper comparing to those veterans in the field. Replacing those know what not to do with younger…

[flagged]

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#480

Post by bilvar »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #475
gosub100 wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People defile them, use them for shelters, or drug ingestion stations. There's no innovative way to solve homelessness. It's an insidious problem that defies any method to redress. Any angle you try to approach it from will be abused or defeated in some way.

I am sorry but I don’t think you realise how ridiculous this sounds to someone not from the west. See, while India is building public toilets and becoming more civilised, we, with this attitude, are moving in the opposite direction. If we can manage to maintain a toilet in Russia and India, 1st world countries somehow cannot - that’s just a statement of social distinction. > use them for shelters, or drug ingestion s…

Well, you can either have human rights (non-authoritarian states who won't use the police to crack down on this behaviour) or clean public toilets. Of course Singapore for instance has the cleanest public toilets, but you can also pay a 2k fine for chewing gum.
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