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Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years in prison

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Re: Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years in prison

#941

Post by ur-whale »

reso wrote: post #819

Sam is a crook, no doubt, but even now I find him a funny figure. His trial defence was awful. He sincerely believes he was trying to do the right thing, so spent his time on the stand defending his actions at length, instead of keeping his mouth shut except to express contrition. This probably cost him years of freedom. It's strange to say but there's an... authenticity to this that I find endearing.

> that I find endearing.

SBF is an archetypical pathological liar combined with an ego the size of the empire state building.

He's gotten away his entire life lying for a living all the while looking down on people around him for being his supposed intellectual inferiors.

He's gotten so used to operating in that regime that he couldn't stop doing it even when in court, not realizing he was fighting for his life.

The only thing that's "endearing" about a person like this is that he probably belongs in some sort of psychological re-education program.

Re: Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years in prison

#942

Post by riwazp7 »

outop wrote: post #932
abaymado wrote: post #856

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly doubt he will serve all 25. There is no parole in a fed case, but could get reduced time for good behavior. Unlikely he will be in prison stabbing people.

Good behaviour in federal sentences is restricted to 15% off the total.

So almost 4 years

Re: Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years in prison

#943

Post by Randomizer42 »

sopooneo wrote: post #277
setgree wrote: post #176

An uncle once commented about a cousin of ours that he demonstrated how it's possible to screw things up so badly that you can't possibly recover. I think that's true for Sam. I hope it's not true for the people in his orbit; I hope they can get out from under this and try to find meaning, ideally from repairing the harm they've done. As Rick Heicklen writes, "We are not ever going to be Sam. But we could be Caroline…

No dog in this race either way, but what is Michael Lewis meant to have done? Is it just that people feel hist treatment of SBF in Going Infinite was too lenient?

[dead]

Re: Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years in prison

#944

Post by Aeolun »

serf wrote: post #930
FabHK wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, I didn't find Lewis's book as bad (or amoral) as it's often made out to be. Yes, he didn't put his judgement in every paragraph, but his description of SBF was: a) absolutely damning! SBF's lack of empathy, his notion that (given that everyone else is stupid) he knew best and should basically ignore the advice of everyone else (particularly his elders), his naive utilitarianism without any deontological/virtue…

>And, btw, you might well have turned out the same way under similar circumstances, but for the grace of god. that criteria is applicable to literally any criminal, ever. It's effectively useless as a statement about crime and punishment, although it serves as a useful reminder to those not condemned. >2) SBF has severe moral deficiencies and belongs in prison for a long time, but not because he is "evil". moral stan…

> the trick is finding someone that is amoral while also retaining a powerful enough understanding of the law and governing society that they can get away with enacting their deviousness without fear of prosecution.

Uber and WeWork come to mind.

Re: Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years in prison

#945

Post by bambax »

liendolucas wrote: post #440
tombert wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I broke into a person's house and stole $1000, even if I didn't directly hurt that person, I could expect to get several years in prison, basically regardless of the state. Lets say three years to be conservative on this? Sam Bankman Fried stole billions of dollars [1], probably often around $1000 at a time from tens of thousands of people. If going with my logic, he should be getting a lot longer than 25 years, u…

> Sam Bankman Fried stole billions of dollars [1], probably often around $1000 at a time from tens of thousands of people. If going with my logic, he should be getting a lot longer than 25 years, upwards of hundreds or thousands of years. Apparently that logic applied to Bernie Madoff. He got 150 years. How are these cases so similar and yet got radically different sentences?

Madoff's system was only a Ponzi; there were no investments; all new clients' money was used to finance returns and withdrawals of previous clients.

SBF's system was to use clients' money to do illiquid investments. Was it fraud? YES, because he lied to his clients and said he didn't invest their money. And that's why he was tried and punished. But was it the same kind of fraud as Madoff? NO.

In law, intent is everything. If you kill someone by accident, or in self-defense, or after planning their murder for years, the law will treat that very differently; yet in all cases the result is the same (the person is dead).

Same with fraud. It's not the same if it's a pure fraud where there is no possibility that the victims will ever see their money back, or if it's a fraud where it's possible they will be made whole, even if that possibility only exists in the mind of the perpetrator, because the mind of the perpetrator is what the legal system is interested in.

Re: Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years in prison

#946

Post by Aeolun »

tim333 wrote: post #811
goalonetwo wrote: post #690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who lost a little bit through this whole debacle I think it is because we willingly gave our money to FTX. We wanted to believe in this story that was too good to be true. We got fooled and we are slightly ashamed. When you get mugged you have no choice on what is happening. The actions are being forced physically on you. With FTX We chose to go that way so it somehow feels like we are as much to blame as…

I deposited some money with FTX and expected them not to steal it in the same way you expect a bank not to steal your deposits. I didn't gift to them or expect anything too good to be true. If a bank manager steals customer deposits to pay his gambling debts I put the blame 100% on the manager 0% on the customers.

That’s strange. If I invest my money into any form of securities it’s pretty clear to me that the value of that capital might go to zero overnight.

If I invested it in crypto? I would value it at zero for the rest of eternity.

Re: Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years in prison

#947

Post by Aeolun »

zarathustreal wrote: post #545
ragazzina wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is funny - especially when you consider a mugger on the street would need your money much more than SBF ever would.

Money _should be_ the least of the concerns of a mugger on the street. Subjecting yourself to lawlessness exposes you to real danger and kinda detracts from your ability to participate in commerce. Granted, I haven’t seen any scientific evidence to suggest that a lack of money causes a lack of ability to reason (and thus a lack of responsibility for one’s own actions) but my own anecdotal experience does suggest it

I think it’s the opposite? A lack of ability to reason leads to lacking money.

Re: Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years in prison

#948

Post by kelnos »

m463 wrote: post #798
publius_0xf3 wrote: post #449

It's funny. I lost tens of thousands of dollars thanks to this individual, yet his sentence brings me no joy or arouses any emotion at all. I'm utterly indifferent to his fate for some reason and I don't know why. Yet if he had been a mugger who stole a much smaller amount of money from me on the street, I think I would've been far more vengeful. Should I feel vindictive? Or is it healthy to forget about it and move…

I believe the justice system correlates with your feelings. wrt outcome, it seems physical crimes are almost inconsequential in monetary damage compared to "white collar" crimes I can't help but think of that clint eastwood line: "It's a hell of a thing, killin' a man. Take away all he's got, and all he's ever gonna have." I think physical damage, and also the psychological damage of violence has a permanence compare…

> you can always get more stuff.

I think there are millions of poor people in the world who would very much disagree with that statement. But I'd hope they'd still agree that their stuff isn't worth their lives.

Re: Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years in prison

#949

Post by kelnos »

dkarras wrote: post #746
publius_0xf3 wrote: post #449

It's funny. I lost tens of thousands of dollars thanks to this individual, yet his sentence brings me no joy or arouses any emotion at all. I'm utterly indifferent to his fate for some reason and I don't know why. Yet if he had been a mugger who stole a much smaller amount of money from me on the street, I think I would've been far more vengeful. Should I feel vindictive? Or is it healthy to forget about it and move…

It is probably because there is a difference between getting mugged and being scammed. With falling victim to SBF's scheme, you probably believe you are partly to blame and you had to face that fact yourself, did some work on it mentally at the very least in the background. Him getting punished does not make a difference, you probably punished yourself and that is what mattered. With a violent mugging encounter, you…

I don't think this really tracks.

> With a violent mugging encounter, you are blameless

I was mugged a decade or so ago, and while I was certainly angry with the people who mugged me, I also punished myself a bit: I shouldn't have been walking down that particular street at 2am; I'd had a bit to drink and should have called a car. Or I should have been paying more attention to my surroundings; maybe I would have seen them early enough to get away, etc.

The point isn't whether or not the thoughts I had were rational. I don't think the type of crime matters; victims always have plenty of room to assign some blame to themselves, or at least second-guess their actions.

Re: Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years in prison

#950

Post by kelnos »

freedomben wrote: post #520
__loam wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't lose a penny and I'm giddy about it. Justice has been done.

> I didn't lose a penny and I'm giddy about it. Justice has been done. How can you be giddy about a human being locked in a cage for 25 years? Would you be giddy if he were being flogged, or hanged? As long as there has been recording, flogging and hangings were common punishments and usually defended as "justice has been done." Incarceration really isn't far from medieval punishments. I'm by no means suggesting that…

I'm not giddy or anything like that. Our prison system is terrible, and our legal system is often unjust. But I think I'm... satisfied? that a white-collar criminal is experiencing consequences for what he's done. Too often these sorts of people get away with a slap on the wrist at most, and go on to commit more grift.
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