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What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

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411–420 of 568 posts

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#411

If you read this article looking for new or surprising insight, you won't find it. It is not new information that Boeing started a rapid decline shortly after the McDonnell Douglas merger, and it will be unsurprising to you to hear that shortly afterwards, Boeing began abusing its most senior employees into leaving. What this article offers is new detail into exactly how Boeing has gone about cannibalizing itself. Th…

I'll be on two 737 MAX planes going back and forth to Vegas in a couple weeks. Yay!

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#412
Nothing new here, but it's certainly a well-articulated redux.

Reading about this Boeing debacle is gut-wrenching because it totally contradicts what I believe in. Nihilism isn't supposed to win. Not like this, at least. I'm an engineer. I'm proud of what I do, and I care deeply about what I make. I'll admit it, I'm even proud of my country and I believe in the notion that I'm not the only person around here who gives a damn. Apparently there aren't enough people who do.

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but at the end of the day, nobody has died on an American carrier in a Boeing plane in a very long time. This is coincidental. When the plug ripped out of the plane over Portland, it was pure luck that no one was sitting in that row. The seats were shredded. If someone had been sitting there, they also would have been shredded. Boeing and their deteriorated quality culture is directly at fault for that one, and the…

Even if, worst case, 3 people had been sitting there and died (and people are tougher than seats), it would only move needle trivially vs cars.

and while the fact related to the risk of flying vs. driving are probably true, they are off-topic and irrelevant.

the reason that large airline safety in the US is so overwhelmingly good is the preceding 20, 30, 40, 50? years of continuous improvements. until the last 5-10 years that is. we haven't even seen the tip of the iceberg yet. when these 2010's and 2020 planes are 15-30 years old, it's going to be a shit-show.

so if you believe that the airlines are too safe, that there is too much margin, they are over-engineered, over-regulated, etc. then that wouldn't be at all irrational. you could trade some gold-plated engineering for profit. you could trade bureaucracy for faster production, maintenance, etc. you could reduce the cost of travel (by how much? it's already cheap). this would be an interesting argument to make. but these decisions should be made in the light of day by the NTSB/FAA, congress, the public, and the shareholders, etc. even then, it's likely that theory would have negative consequences (remember the better-faster-cheaper NASA theory of operation).

the problem is that, instead of an honest choice made in public by the appropriate stakeholders and the flying public, these choices and short-cuts were made in secret, illegally, with extreme dishonestly, repeatedly, for at least a decade, for extremely selfish gains, by FAA and boeing executives.

that's what's not ok. we're told and we expect the nearly perfect safety to continue. what we got was back to the 1950's-1970's era shit-show.

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#414
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Boeing's stock price went up 10x in the time frame covered by the article. The people responsible for gutting the company have cashed out. Why does the stock market reward idiot shit like this? I've seen the same whit a a large US semiconductor company. In the 2008 crunch, the fired the most tenured employees and offshored the work abroad. Granted, the company didn't fail, their stock went up and now it's 5-7x that…

Because, depressingly, the stock market is correct. Boeing is one of two manufacturers for planes of this size. The other is totally backlogged with orders. The stock market has assessed, correctly, that Boeing can withstand this loss of knowledge and keep generating profit. Does it result in shit equipment that literally kills people? Sure. But how many people are going to stop flying because of it? Not many. Throw…

People won't stop flying until they do - or at least stop flying on Boeing aircraft. And if airlines can't make a profit on a Boeing aircraft flight, there won't be any more Boeing aircraft flights.

I don't know whether the point where the market for Boeing aircraft travel is one disaster away or ten disasters away, but it is out there. When it comes, people won't stop flying, but they will fly less, and it will cost more. It can happen.

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#415
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say it like "anxiety" and "stress" are synonymous to suicidal. I am a pretty anxious person, and sometimes have a lot of stress at work, and experienced burnout in the past too. That doesn't mean I am about to shoot myself in a motel parking lot - or anywhere else, for that matter. This binary view of mental health - either a person is "healthy" which means 100% perfect, or he's not - and then anything can be exp…

His whole lawsuit was about being forced to retire 10 years early because Boeing forced him out for whistleblowing. Thats whistleblowing as in past tense. He complained to the FAA and the FAA said 'yes John you're right'. Not to diminish your mental heath but the whole argument here is that what Boeing around "stress", "pressure" and "anxiety" was far worse. Its not like is anti whistleblower retaliation case (AIR21)…

Being forced as whistle-blower and being suicidal are again very different things. Especially when he was in the middle of proving he's right. And right in the middle of the fight, between the testimonies, after he spent so much effort to prove he's right, he decides "fuck it all" and quits abruptly? Doesn't add up. Maybe something else happened but I just am astonished how easily people dismiss it. Ah, he was anxious and stressed? We'll, it's only natural then. No it's not.

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#416
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It just took 25 years to finally happen. To me the big question is, why did it take 25 years for this to become common knowledge? Why is our system of evaluating public corporations so messed up that a public company, and one with huge government contracts to boot, could get away with this for that long?

GE seems like another firm / conglomerate that has lost its way - although we have heard about Jack Welch's management disaster, I do not know if they lost engineers the way it happened at Boeing. Last year, I bought GE Monogram kitchen appliances and was pleased that they work so well, until I found that it is a Chinese firm that has bought the use of GE's name along with their operations. Maybe that is why the appl…

How will the average person be able to easily keep track of all these corporations merging.

A free market requires the consumer to be fully informed and rational, I just don't see that being possible in this environment.

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#417
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It just took 25 years to finally happen. To me the big question is, why did it take 25 years for this to become common knowledge? Why is our system of evaluating public corporations so messed up that a public company, and one with huge government contracts to boot, could get away with this for that long?

Our major system for evaluating companies is market-driven pricing of the company. That in turn is based mostly on the views of investors and traders, that is people who want to turn money into more money and generally aren't fussy about how it happens. So the market price for a company tends to favor short-term cash extraction over long-term value creation. That is to say, this is basically what our "system of evalu…

>So the market price for a company tends to favor short-term cash extraction over long-term value creation.

Then why did markets favor companies that literally made no profits for years, Amazon and Uber being examples?

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GE seems like another firm / conglomerate that has lost its way - although we have heard about Jack Welch's management disaster, I do not know if they lost engineers the way it happened at Boeing. Last year, I bought GE Monogram kitchen appliances and was pleased that they work so well, until I found that it is a Chinese firm that has bought the use of GE's name along with their operations. Maybe that is why the appl…

How will the average person be able to easily keep track of all these corporations merging. A free market requires the consumer to be fully informed and rational, I just don't see that being possible in this environment.

It's possible, there just needs to be someone willing to put the work in and to present the data in a manner that makes it accessable, easy to parse, and profitable enough to cover at least time and costs.

The work is building a database of filing locations and feeds (eg: public document feeds of each and every stock exchange, corporate filing register, etc) and builder parses to extract new names, boards of directors, name changes, major stock holdings, etc.

It takes some doing (*) - but with LLM's and advances in open software it gets easier every day.

( * Myself and a small team did this for the global mineral sector some years (15+) ago )

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#419

The "funny" thing to me is that I'm old enough to remember when the merger occurred that people were predicting exactly what came to pass. It just took 25 years to finally happen.

Is it feasible to hold a short position on a stock for 25 years?

You can buy options (puts and calls) for three years out.

Shorting a stock for that long would be a recipe for disaster, at some point it's going to go up and you're going to lose it all. Remember when you buy long your positive upside is infinite and your downside limited to 100%, when you short it's the opposite.

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#420

This situation highlights why startups can outperform established companies. It's not only about innovation or asymmetric motivation but also due to the internal decay of incumbents like Boeing and General Electric. This presents an opportunity for an aeronautics startup to emerge - mission focused on building the best airplanes.

Of course, all you have to do is get several billion dollars in funding and hope Boeing doesn't use its vast resources to poach your engineers. Boeing is not going to be disrupted any more than TSMC or ASML will be disrupted. Planes are too complex and too expensive to manufacture correctly.

The best engineers wont work for companies that don’t ship great product.

Funding and complexity are obstacles, but there are many examples of overcoming the obstacles with innovation and conviction.

Rockets - Lockheed -> SpaceX

AI - Google -> OpenAI

Electric Cars - Toyota -> Tesla

Shipping - Maersk -> Flexport

CPUs - Intel -> ARM

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