Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

vitalik.eth.limo

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

351–360 of 515 posts

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#351

Post by [deleted] »

willmadden wrote: post #304
rglullis wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin original plan was about "digital cash", it was fully focused on permissionless payments, but that's about it.

The whitepaper's plan wasn't, but that's not true at all for Bitcoin itself. Satoshi included OP_RETURN which allowed smart contracts - mastercoin being the first L2 (on Bitcoin). He also wanted to increase the blocksize to allow scaling. Vitalik started Ethereum because the "core devs" (bank incumbent funded usurpers) refused to cooperate. This is also the reason the original maintainers like Gavin and Mike Hearn sp…

[deleted]

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#352

Post by midmagico »

willmadden wrote: post #304
rglullis wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin original plan was about "digital cash", it was fully focused on permissionless payments, but that's about it.

The whitepaper's plan wasn't, but that's not true at all for Bitcoin itself. Satoshi included OP_RETURN which allowed smart contracts - mastercoin being the first L2 (on Bitcoin). He also wanted to increase the blocksize to allow scaling. Vitalik started Ethereum because the "core devs" (bank incumbent funded usurpers) refused to cooperate. This is also the reason the original maintainers like Gavin and Mike Hearn sp…

This is all pretty much boring, tired lies that altcoin profiteers like to trot out apparently assuming nobody is still around who is interested in contradicting them.

The purpose of OP_RETURN was to end the script. It was not designed for rando garbage overlays that are worthless; Satoshi's views on scaling were ambiguous—rather than say it "should" he was instead correcting people who thought you could break consensus by simply setting the value higher. There was absolutely zero communication between Vitalik and anybody about his "plans" to dump an overlay into Bitcoin, and his current story about 80-to-40 bytes is a pure, often debunked lie. There isn't a single communication that Vitalik himself can point to anywhere which shows he was interested in "cooperating" and then core turned him down.

His typical lie was that he was interested in stuffing data into Bitcoin, but then core devs "stopped that" by reducing the amount he could stuff into Bitcoin by half—from 80 to 40 bytes—but when he says that he also never points at any discussion, and in any event the direct history contradicts this—no versions of Bitcoin from back then ever reduced anything. It was only ever an increase: from 0, to 40, to 80 in released versions.

There no evidence these people ever give which shows some lack of cooperation with Vitalik is the reason why Hearn and Andresen "split off" to make an altcoin, which itself is quite the absurdity, and if true just means they would have been ethereum pumpers anyway.. so..

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#353

Post by hem777 »

ArtTimeInvestor wrote: post #36

All this crpyto technology is fascinating. But is it used for anything? I asked this in an Ask HN today, but got no answer so far: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39852389 It looks like not a single HN reader is using blockchain technology for anything. If nobody is using blockchain technology outside of blockchain projects, what are the reasons we expect that some day we will? What could be a near term use case…

My non-techie brother has been staking his 1 ETH he bought couple of years ago and has earned today, in his words, “slightly more than from my insurance savings account in the past 10 years”. I think that’s a really nice use case.

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#354

Post by govg »

threeseed wrote: post #343
evantbyrne wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

imo this is less of a technical issue and more of a regulatory one in 2024. Sending and receiving large amounts of btc/eth for instance might take a minute. For lower value point of sale transactions you don't really have to wait. And that's money in your pocket at that point not an IOU like a pending transaction at a US bank. Paying capital gains on transactions and constantly changing value dampens adoption quite a…

> And that's money in your pocket at that point not an IOU like a pending transaction at a US bank In Australia, we have instant transfers between bank accounts. I imagine the US will get to that point soon in which case there is no benefit to crypto for this use case.

It exists in the US as well (Zelle), except due to the super high number of banks, not all will have feature parity / have it enabled. The major banks like Chase support QR code scanning for instant transfers, smaller ones might require a phone number or email input via keyboard.

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#355

Post by akoboldfrying »

mindcandy wrote: post #335
danpalmer wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5 cents per transaction is high for many parts of the world, and exceptionally high if every interaction in normal life is turned into a financial transaction.

Perfect is the enemy of the great. Credit card users pay $1+ fees per transaction all the time. They don’t complain only because vendors usually eat the fees on their behalf to obscure the issue. I have a “2% cash back on everything” card which I know is actually a “we charged your vendor 4% and shared half of that with people like you who clicked the right button” card. I don’t like it. But, that’s the game. People…

I totally agree. The perception that, say, credit cards are fast and free is completely wrong, and based on the comfortably ignorant idea that things that only impact other people don't really exist.

If there's one useful thing to take from it, it's that I think it does usefully highlight just how critical that perception is for adoption -- specifically, how thoroughly it dominates technical concerns like throughput and latency. Perhaps if shop owners were prepared to eat the bitcoin transaction fee the same way they eat the credit card fee, bitcoin might have a resurgence as a cash alternative. There would still be the transaction speed issue -- I think it would require a third party to step in to provide merchants with guarantees (in exchange for a fee), so that the merchant wouldn't have to wait for the transaction to go through. But that's not a tech problem -- it's the same problem that credit cards already have, and have already solved.

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#356

Post by rglullis »

wslh wrote: post #339
rglullis wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> proof-of-stake upgrade maintains prohibitive Consensus algorithms have nothing to do with transaction fees. > while other technologies have low fees. Any "Ethereum killer" that showed up turned out to have the same if not worse problems as Ethereum in the moment they started dealing with minimal real-world traction. > contributors received the ~50% of the total ethers until now. First: source? Second: "50% of total…

> Consensus algorithms have nothing to do with transaction fees. Please don't tell bullshit. Look at Algorand and other protocols, consensus has a relationship with fees because it is linked with the cost of reaching consensus! You can even read that in the Ethereum subreddit [0]. > Source? It is repeated ad nauseam in Internet [1] and you can analyze the blockchain genesis to check it. > Ethereum killer? It is not a…

I asked for "source" because I know that this is "repeated ad nauseam in the Internet" while being provably false.

The very first result on your google query is a bitcoin.com page that is 404, but archive.org has this:

  The Ethereum network started off with a supply of 72 million Ether (ETH).   
  Eighty-three percent of that (60 million) was distributed to people who had 
  purchased ETH in a crowd sale that was conducted in July and August of 2014.


  (...)

  Of the remaining 12 million ETH distributed at the launch of the network in 2015, 
  half was split amongst 83 early contributors to the protocol based mostly on time
  contributed. The other half were set aside for the Ethereum Foundation.
So, the "50% to contributors" is actually 8.33%.

> consensus has a relationship with fees because it is linked with the cost of reaching consensus!

Wrong. Fees are determined by network activity and the amount of transactions competing to get into the block being "mined". The cost to validate a full block is not really different than the cost to validate a block that is not completely full.

If Algorand or Cardano ever got close to the transaction volume from Ethereum, you can bet that their average transaction fees would go up accordingly.

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#357

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

qweqwe14 wrote: post #342
wslh wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Zcash and others doing the same?

They aren't. Zcash has opt-in privacy, which I think we've established doesn't work. By this logic BTC also has opt-in privacy – just use a mixer. Well, except that your BTC will be tainted if you do it, which effectively makes BTC non-fungible for all intents and purposes. The only way to have a private, fungible cryptocurrency is to make privacy mandatory and not "something you enable because you are a drug dealer"…

I think it's more useful to think of ZCash's featureset not as privacy defaulting to on or off, but as giving you the option to have pseudonyms.

If you were running a non profit and you wanted people to be able to anonymously contribute to it, but you wanted to prove to your anonymous donors that all of their donations were being spent in accordance with the goals of the nonprofit, you might use ZCash transparent vs shielded addresses as a way to create that division between transparent and opaque.

As for t-addresses having been default, that's a regulatory hack. Exchanges have a better shot at being compliant if they can use the chain as a source of truth. So t-addresses let them create a space where they can do that, and then you as a user can privately move funds out of the exchange's domain and into a black hole without having to get your hands dirty with some other exchange.

Yes I know that monero let's you generate keys for this on a tx by tx basis, but it's not the same. It's just different privacy properties with different use cases.

Monero, however, has the objectively superior CLI. It's fantastic.

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#358

Post by godelski »

evantbyrne wrote: post #198
shuntress wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "Killer App" for a cryptocurrency would be the ability to use it as a currency.

imo this is less of a technical issue and more of a regulatory one in 2024. Sending and receiving large amounts of btc/eth for instance might take a minute. For lower value point of sale transactions you don't really have to wait. And that's money in your pocket at that point not an IOU like a pending transaction at a US bank. Paying capital gains on transactions and constantly changing value dampens adoption quite a…

I don't want instant transactions. Clawbacks are very useful. Now the trick is to get that decentralized which means things like smart contracts? But still I haven't seen a good solution.

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#359

Post by SamPatt »

lesuorac wrote: post #325
shuntress wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "Killer App" for a cryptocurrency would be the ability to use it as a currency.

I'm really surprised sellers aren't trying to use it at all. There was a small push awhile ago ~2015/16 where a bunch of online stores started accepting bitcoin but IIRC they all stopped once the BTC/USD started to decrease. I guess credit card fees are <4% so there might not be a big enough discount to offer consumers to make them figure out how to get crypto (without paying more than 4% fees somewhere). Perhaps a c…

The high bitcoin fees killed adoption more than the price drop.

I worked on OpenBazaar, a decentralized marketplace using bitcoin, and no one wants to spend $5 just to buy something. Artificially reducing block sizes killed adoption.

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#360

Post by threeseed »

arandomusername wrote: post #310
defiamazing wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because it has regulatory approval (for now). It's not because of a blockchain. You can start the thought experiment by asking why USDC is on Ethereum and other popular chains rather than own private blockchain. People could make payments faster. Fees would be lower or more likely zero.

If it's not because of a blockchain, how come there is no other good way? It's not on it's own private blockchain because then no one would use it.

If my aim is transfer money internationally cheaply and efficiently why do I care what blockchain it uses. Or whether it uses a blockchain at all.
Post reply on HN