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You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

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Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#61

Post by ribosometronome »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #15
jmward01 wrote: post #10

I agree with the core idea, avoid saving info so you can't ever leak it. I personally think our legal framework should be based on consequences to encourage this mentality more. If you are hacked I don't care even a little that you did everything right, I just care that my information got taken. You should be held liable even if you did what the industry thought was right.

Obviously, IANAL In a sense, that gradation is present for other offenses. You kill a man by accident? It may end up being involuntary manslaughter. You kill that same man with malice and planning? It charge will move to aggravated and premeditated murder. At the end of the day, a life was taken and some level of judicial review should take place. That does not appear to happen for 'hack' events.

Are involuntary manslaughter cases not usually predicated on some sort of negligence or other criminal activity on the part of the manslaughter? I don't think I've ever heard of anyone being punished for being the person in the wrong place when someone else decides to commit suicide by train or vehicle, for example.

If we take the comparison down a step (and into what I think is maybe a more comparable situation), I routinely see warnings in parking lots that they are not liable for stolen property or damage and imagine those are generally probably pretty accurate outside of, again, some negligence on the side of the business.

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#62

Post by mooreds »

Affric wrote: post #57
mooreds wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> avoid saving info so you can't ever leak it I think that this is a good idea. It's similar to the principle of least privilege: keep only what you need to offer the service you are providing. Less risk for the provider, less risk for the consumer. However, at least in the USA, I've noticed an increasing number of companies who have determined that personal data is worth good money. This is why most stores have rewa…

I am still waiting for digital identity. Not sure why I can’t authenticate myself with these companies based on a private key and any details they want be disclosed to them for whatever reason don’t just come ephemerally from my server. Obviously, you could also have a third party acting in this space for the non-tech savvy. Right now all my data is held by corporate types who don’t give a shit.

Passkeys are a start. They have their issues (I wrote about some here: https://ciamweekly.substack.com/p/on-webauthn-and-passkeys ) but at least it is widespread, well supported, standardized, (possibly) anonymous public private key cryptography.

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#63

Post by photonthug »

travisjungroth wrote: post #53
filleduchaos wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm rather baffled at this level of nitpicking. Yes, if the software was being written by completely different people with completely different goals they might then start to acquire user data but what does that have to do with the point (that data this team and this management don't have cannot be leaked)?

Because their current solution doesn’t meet their own stated goals. > even if we are competent enough to prevent a leak from ever happening, and even if our users trust us to do what we say, we must be resilient to being strong-armed by a future controlling power (e.g. if someone we don't trust buys us) They could be strong armed into collecting data and then handing it over.

Is there any kind of legal promise that could be made and not rescinded by the board, not swept away by mergers and acquisitions? I assume not but that’s almost what is needed here more than a software architecture fix which, no matter how well designed, is only as stable as the whims of internal stakeholders.

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#64

Post by mooreds »

eddd-ddde wrote: post #59
mooreds wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> avoid saving info so you can't ever leak it I think that this is a good idea. It's similar to the principle of least privilege: keep only what you need to offer the service you are providing. Less risk for the provider, less risk for the consumer. However, at least in the USA, I've noticed an increasing number of companies who have determined that personal data is worth good money. This is why most stores have rewa…

Even without reward programs, couldn't they just associate purchases with a given credit card or similar?

Absolutely. And I am sure they do.

But rewards programs might make matching easier (across different credit cards and household members).

They also are owned by the service provider and don't reveal anything to credit card companies.

Again, I'm speculating here.

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#66

Post by defen »

travisjungroth wrote: post #11
scoates wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello. Agreed that we need comprehensive privacy reform. You should probably read the article, though. (-; I have access to everything (on the tech side) at Matter, and if you put your social security number into the app, I wouldn't be able to access it to write it on a sticky note. That's the whole point. PS I'm also old and jaded. (-;

I don’t think the article really answers this. All these decisions you’ve made to not store data are decisions that you could unmake. To put it concretely: if everyone at Matter tomorrow became malevolent and wanted user data, what happens? For example, if you push an app that sends home my private text, how would I know? Could you?

Isn't this an argument against putting any personal information into any app? Signal could turn malevolent tomorrow and start sending all your chats to their servers, which could have life-threatening implications for people vs just potentially being embarrassing.

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#67

Post by gretch »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #15
jmward01 wrote: post #10

I agree with the core idea, avoid saving info so you can't ever leak it. I personally think our legal framework should be based on consequences to encourage this mentality more. If you are hacked I don't care even a little that you did everything right, I just care that my information got taken. You should be held liable even if you did what the industry thought was right.

Obviously, IANAL In a sense, that gradation is present for other offenses. You kill a man by accident? It may end up being involuntary manslaughter. You kill that same man with malice and planning? It charge will move to aggravated and premeditated murder. At the end of the day, a life was taken and some level of judicial review should take place. That does not appear to happen for 'hack' events.

The difference between this situation is that you still committed an action, compared to simply being acted on.

A better analogy would be like if you were a bank holding peoples' money. Armed assailants break into the money and take it. Is the bank liable because it did not have adequate defenses for the attack?

But the bank situation is easy to solve because it's money and money is fungible, so you solve it with insurance.

Leaked data can't be revoked and it's hard to quantify.

If you make the policy wrong, you essentially end up punishing a victim party (the end users are victims, but the firm that was attacked is also a victim).

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#68

Post by mooreds »

m-p-3 wrote: post #60
mooreds wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> avoid saving info so you can't ever leak it I think that this is a good idea. It's similar to the principle of least privilege: keep only what you need to offer the service you are providing. Less risk for the provider, less risk for the consumer. However, at least in the USA, I've noticed an increasing number of companies who have determined that personal data is worth good money. This is why most stores have rewa…

> personal data is worth good money Then let's make the penalties substantially higher with the risk it incurs.

Isn't that what the CCPA and other laws are trying to do? https://www.burr.com/newsroom/articles/summary-and-compariso... is an outline of some of the US efforts.

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#69

Post by _yb2s »

mooreds wrote: post #55
jmward01 wrote: post #10

I agree with the core idea, avoid saving info so you can't ever leak it. I personally think our legal framework should be based on consequences to encourage this mentality more. If you are hacked I don't care even a little that you did everything right, I just care that my information got taken. You should be held liable even if you did what the industry thought was right.

> avoid saving info so you can't ever leak it I think that this is a good idea. It's similar to the principle of least privilege: keep only what you need to offer the service you are providing. Less risk for the provider, less risk for the consumer. However, at least in the USA, I've noticed an increasing number of companies who have determined that personal data is worth good money. This is why most stores have rewa…

Yep... I think already companies have a profit incentive to not keep data they don't think will provide them value. They are keeping the data not because they are not thinking about security, but because the data is valuable to them, either to sell to a 3rd party or to better target/market to specific customers.

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#70

Post by wolverine876 »

From their privacy policy: https://matter.xyz/privacy

> If we make changes to this privacy policy, we will update it here and update the effective date at the top. (We can’t email you about changes because we don’t collect everyone’s email addresses.) Changes to this policy will not apply retroactively.

Effectively they can change it any time and you probably won't know.

If they violate it, what power do you have to enforce it? Pay an attorney six figures? For what damages under what law?

Also, I'm not sure what 'retroactively' means here, legally: They have my data and change the policy; can they tomorrow use my data according to the new policy? (Not that it matters much, because I won't know about the changes anyway.)

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