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Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

vitalik.eth.limo

231–240 of 515 posts

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#231
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you could just send the money, the barrier to pay would be 100x lower. We can already do that here in Brazil: the web site displays a QR code (plus its contents in text form), the user scans the QR code (or copies the text) into their banking app, and confirms it on the app to send the money. I hasn't AFAIK made any meaningful difference for websites. What people dislike isn't the inconvenience of credit cards,…

What if they had $50 stored in a browser plugin and when a website asks for it, they could pay $1 with a simple click?

That was possible 30 years ago. There have been probably been a dozen schemes that tried something like that over the decades, starting with DigiCash from before the WWW existed.

They all failed not because of fees, not because of security concerns, but because even having to think about whether you want to pay for something and how much incurs a mental cost that people avoid.

Free beets cheap by a margin that has nothing to do with how cheap or how easy.

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter-strike had a market for collectibles well before?

It took work by a large parent company. And I don't know how third-party websites can trade those, but it must mean either Valve is managing an API or people are doing something hacky to work around that.

And the reason for that is simple: game collectibles literally cannot work in any game on any platform except the one they were designed for.

There's a reason you can't bring your Fortnite skin into a Lord of the Rings game, and it has very little to do with "central companies" and "APIs"

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I agree that git is a blockchain Wait, isn't git more of a merkle-DAG? I thought one of the defining features of blockchains was effectively branchless global state. My understanding is that DAGs are a superset of blockchains. Is this a wrong? My comment about "blockchain junk" is mainly in response to the fact that it's nearly impossible to find any investment/involvement in the space without running into complete…

You sound like someone who knows your stuff on this and I regret if I was in any way making it sound personal or disrespectful to you personally. I maintain it’s an unfortunate if not offensive phrasing, but I’m in no position to carry rocks around glass houses: I say unfortunately or offensively-phrased things too. There isn’t really a robust consensus that I’m aware of as to what constitutes a blockchain per se: Wi…

> You sound like someone who knows your stuff on this and I regret if I was in any way making it sound personal or disrespectful to you personally. I maintain it’s an unfortunate if not offensive phrasing, but I’m in no position to carry rocks around glass houses: I say unfortunately or offensively-phrased things too.

I didn't take offense at all. I find your knowledge of the space refreshing. I have watched blockchains carefully from the sidelines for some time because of my interest in the intersection of economics, state, and technology and how blockchains might change those things. Over time I became more jaded because the scaling problems blockchains run into seem to be almost insurmountable, so my interest has pivoted into less-global, more-scalable approaches (like merkle-DAG CRDTs with some external form of validation).

> There isn’t really a robust consensus that I’m aware of as to what constitutes a blockchain per se: Wikipedia lists git as one, and I suppose that’s as good a source as any absent such consensus.

Fair enough.

> In more pragmatic/colloquial usage I might define a blockchain loosely as a “tamper-resistant, directed, and typically acyclic / bounded-cyclic data structure with an implied machine economics optimization around infrequent but critically important fully-verifiable history subject to heuristically-determined / freely parameterized bounds on branching factor, duration in branched states, and a bounded susceptibility to adversarial interference in a verifiable consensus on the periodic elimination of branching on some semi-predicable cadence”, which is pretty hand-wavy but I think captures the spirit of the general usage.

Have you considered a career in poetry?? Joking aside, this pretty much sums up my view as well. A DAG with a strong gravitational pull towards a master branch with somewhat infrequently changing data. Which also includes git, so you're right.

> Throw in a bunch of electricity consumption that’s maybe net driving up carbon emissions and maybe net attaching a financial incentive to electricity so cheap that it basically has to be renewable but it’s kinda too soon to tell, and I think I’m now having trouble seeing how crypto three years ago and “AI” last year are any different along these dimensions.

Yes, agreed. Let's spin up an immense amount of computing power to train a model that hallucinates when asked basic questions. Again, there is a space where the marriage of a large dataset of knowledge and an automated linguistic system searching that knowledge has great use-cases, but throwing "AI" at every problem is just another eye-rolley fad.

> The difference in my view is that AI is probably higher variance by a lot on social welfare, and not because of some dumbass “paperclip-indifferent AGI” tripe.

What do you mean by this?

> Blockchain as applied to finance has the scope to create transparency into financial markets and compel governments to open the books on what is and isn’t legal regarding money, for who, and why.

This is one of the things I was originally most excited about. Make politicians receive all wages, contributions, etc through some auditable public currency. If you're going to work in the public sector, then you have to consent to transparency. I have my own issues with money (mainly its deficiency for economic transactions) but cryptocurrencies are certainly a step up from it. But like you said, you can't just release some new currency and expect the government to bless it. Some empires had their armies, some their navies, but we have our banks. Our empire is a financial one, and a currency that replaces the USD is a direct attack against the heart of the empire. Many mountains would have to move before that is possible, unless Wall St finds some extra utility in it that allows them to extract more.

> the public to understand a little better how important digital identity, security, privacy, and autonomy are in 2024

100%...cryptographic identity is going to be huge in the next few years (I'm betting on it quite heavily https://stamp-protocol.github.io/).

> AI has more obviously useful applications at the consumer level (though it’s largely a solution to itself as a way to get information one could previously get from a search engine before it ruined the indexes of search engines by making arbitrarily persuasive falsehoods too cheap to meter, we’ve had spam for a long time, but spam so good it’s convincing to experts in anything other than a bad mood? That’s new.).

Yes, exactly, LLMs as they are are a glorified search engine. Search engines have consumed themselves trying to tailor results to their users instead of just fucking showing objective information and are becoming essentially obsolete pay-to-play ad machines.

> The danger with AI is that it winds up being something other than “available weight” and “operator-aligned”, i.e. whoever is the last man standing has arbitrary unaccountable power to convince anyone of anything and prevent that from being accessed by anyone else.

Well, there's more here. As AI markets itself as this sort of objective intelligence machine, it garners more and more trust. As this solidifies it has the potential to shape perception over time to the benefit of the operators/controllers. The obvious conclusion is snuck in advertising, but I'm thinking much more sinister like the editorialization of information to protect the owner classes and the state from any kind of scrutiny. Effectively, a Big Brother that instead of using fear for compliance, softly whispers in your ear. Pair this with the immense surveillance apparatus we've spent decades perfecting (but it's in the private sector! so it's ok!!1) and we're setting ourselves up for a hellscape dystopia.

Definitely higher stakes, I'd say.

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#234
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but if every blockchain project is just "building something for the blockchain" then where is the actual value?

You seem to be drawing a distinction here between companies that are building something for blockchain vs building something for people. Alright, I'll bite, here are some projects that use blockchain for things besides trading tokens or improving blockchain technology: - https://sarcophagus.io/ - https://www.gitcoin.co/ - https://docs.kleros.io/ There's many more. Many don't have a lot of adoption, and I don't know i…

> But at the very least it's often interesting to see how traditional systems are reimagined in order to enable decentralized, trustless, computer programs

They are not re-imagined. It's a combination of a still on-ongoing gold rush (well, the end tail of it) and people pretending there are purely technical solutions to all problems.

Almost every single of those "interesting re-imagining" projects rather quickly rediscovers why traditional systems are the way they are, and end up being shittier versions of those.

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#235
post #74

Key quote from the article: > Many have argued that the lack of large-scale applications for the past ten years proves that crypto is useless. I have always argued against this: pretty much every crypto application that is not financial speculation depends on low fees - and so while we have high fees, we should not be surprised that we mainly see financial speculation! > Now that we have blobs, this key constraint th…

>adds a great deal of UX complexity to the end user

Considering there are people who don't understand the bitcoins aren't INSIDE a physical wallet, that ship has sailed and made a revolution or two already.

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#236
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It took work by a large parent company. And I don't know how third-party websites can trade those, but it must mean either Valve is managing an API or people are doing something hacky to work around that.

And the reason for that is simple: game collectibles literally cannot work in any game on any platform except the one they were designed for. There's a reason you can't bring your Fortnite skin into a Lord of the Rings game, and it has very little to do with "central companies" and "APIs"

Interop with other games isn't the issue here.

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a better question is to look at how people use it, the frictions they encounter, and who works on solving those frictions just saying “speculation” as if thats not a use case misses that “financial services” are our biggest industry on the planet and thats mirrored in the blockchain space, many people solve frictions and compete with each other. it willfully ignores that all currencies are 99% held as stores of value…

Given that we are now entering another crypto hype cycle and blockchain technology, discussions often veer towards crypto and the allure of embedded tokens. I’m going to stick to the realty and opportunity: utilizing blockchain in fixed income finance. Having spent two decades navigating the complexities of Wall Street, I know the critical problem plaguing the fixed income market: the overwhelming amount of data gene…

> the root cause of friction in fixed income trading: the lack of direct origination and data quality across market participants. By leveraging a permissioned network,

Blockchain has nothing to do with "data quality across market participants". Bad data entered into blockchain remains bad data.

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t say Dr. Liskov was doing pBFT research for the express purpose of promoting cryptocurrency as an application, I said Professor Liskov was working on “blockchain tech”, it’s therefore pretty cheeky to call “blockchain” “junk”, and I said that she not only persisted in but increased the scope of such research during a period of time when it was impossible not to know this is how the technology is being adopted…

Ok, you said Professor Liskov was working on blockchain tech. Is that the point? Because no, she wasn't.

We’ve reached my limit on the nesting of a contentious sub-thread (frankly I’m surprised we haven’t reached HN’s limit on such).

If I’m mistaken about this, I want to be educated about it, I hold all of the famous computer scientists I’ve mentioned in extremely high regard and if I’ve been inadvertently spreading falsehoods it’s a priority to me to both stop doing that and depending on the degree of such an error if it is one, a formal apology could even be in order.

I do not think that this remains a useful or even acceptable forum for that conversation however.

If you know or strongly believe that I’ve made statements about public figures that I admire and that are inaccurate, I’d not only invite but explicitly request that you contact me directly to straighten it out without the distractions and perverse incentives of an audience to a debate that has become more than “spirited”.

I’m reachable at b7r6@b7r6.net and I hope to continue this discussion in a more productive forum than this particular sub-thread.

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#239

All this crpyto technology is fascinating. But is it used for anything? I asked this in an Ask HN today, but got no answer so far: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39852389 It looks like not a single HN reader is using blockchain technology for anything. If nobody is using blockchain technology outside of blockchain projects, what are the reasons we expect that some day we will? What could be a near term use case…

People love shitting on NFTs, but there's still a really good art scene based on NFTs and smart contracts. And once you have digital objects that you actually care about, all the web3 infrastructure is surprisingly useful.

> there's still a really good art scene based on NFTs

Is that a "good art" scene, or a "good" art scene?

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's actually interesting technology being developed here in the areas of distributed computation and zero trust systems. The implementations of Zero Knowledge Proofs and ongoing work on ZK-SNARKS I personally find most fascinating. There's a lot more to this ecosystem than just speculation. At it's core is a distributed world computer but all anyone knows about is money.exe because this stuff is immensely complex…

> At it's core is a distributed world computer but all anyone knows about is money.exe because this stuff is immensely complex. Alternatively, because the only way to use the aforementioned distributed world computer is to engage with money.exe and buy more CoinTokens. Imagine all the kids out there who will be delighted to learn a pay-per-use code interpreter. "Hey mom, I need your credit card to cover the gas while…

The problem with this statement is in assuming that any of this is actually ready for the average user, like a minor with their parents credit card. It's really unfortunate that the space received all of the attention it did during the pandemic, as that only managed to bring in misaligned expectations fueled by grifters making impossible claims.

There are a number of planned upgrades on the roadmap[1], such as layer 2 blobs, that will eventually drive the cost per transaction closer to zero, however we're still a decade away from that being the case. In the meantime you can debug your smart contracts on a testnet for $0

[1] https://notes.ethereum.org/@domothy/roadmap

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