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Why are so many people being hit with £5 fines for 'counterfeit' stamps?

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Re: Why are so many people being hit with £5 fines for 'counterfeit' stamps?

#21
post #13
post #7

It is strange that a person would receive a fine for receiving a letter with a "counterfeit" stamp. That would make for a very nasty revenge operation - send your worst enemy letters with counterfeit stamps to cause them to incur a five pound fine.

From the article, sounds like the recipient can pay the fine and get the mail, or not pay the fine and not get the mail. Maybe it'll get returned to sender, for insufficient postage? Maybe it'll be destroyed?

It is not a fine. It is a fee for optional delivery.

Re: Why are so many people being hit with £5 fines for 'counterfeit' stamps?

#22

Royal Mail needs to be slapped with a massive Freedom of Information request. We need to see how many fines have been paid. We had one of these a year and a half ago, similar story. Seemed BS back then, so this could be a big problem.

Royal Mail, as a private (well… public) company, is not subject to FOIA requests.

Re: Why are so many people being hit with £5 fines for 'counterfeit' stamps?

#23
post #14
post #7

It is strange that a person would receive a fine for receiving a letter with a "counterfeit" stamp. That would make for a very nasty revenge operation - send your worst enemy letters with counterfeit stamps to cause them to incur a five pound fine.

You pay the fine if want the post. You don't legally have to pay. Presumably it works like this because they can't always identify who sent the letter.

> Presumably it works like this because they can't always identify who sent the letter.

Not to mention that this way targets the person that is far more likely to pay, and far less likely to challenge a false counterfeit charge.

Re: Why are so many people being hit with £5 fines for 'counterfeit' stamps?

#24

If this is really about a fine for counterfeiting a stamp, isn't £5 astonishingly low? In the US that's a serious federal felony with up to five years in prison. https://puryearlaw.com/2015/12/27/federal-counterfeit-postag...

The term "fine" seems confusing here. If you look at the form sticker, it seems apparent that £5 is just the on-delivery postage rate for an unpaid item. Different postal services handle this differently, but it's not unusual that a mailpiece that's lacking sufficient postage will be delivered to the recipient if they pay the postage, and it's also not unusual to make that a higher rate to account for the extra work involved in notifying the recipient and collecting it. Under some postal systems you can do this totally intentionally by marking a mailpiece COD.

Maybe Royal Mail really does call this a fine, but it seems like it's just a typical higher "postage due" rate, thus the still rather nominal amount. Paying is optional for the recipient, they could just ignore the notification and it won't be delivered.

The use of this approach for counterfeit seems sort of unwise considering the accusation involved in counterfeit postage, the USPS returns the piece to the sender in that case. But the items on the sticker make me think that Royal Mail has a general bent towards offering delivery no matter what. USPS would also return to sender if there's no postage at all, assuming the piece doesn't indicate the postage should be paid by the recipient. But you can see that the £5 sticker here is the same one used in that case.

Sometimes the situation is complicated by postal policy, for example UPU policy for international mail tends to strongly prefer attempting to deliver a mailpiece over returning it, so "postage due" stickers seem more common on international mail (particularly since the international rates can be confusing and it's easier to accidentally underpay).

Re: Why are so many people being hit with £5 fines for 'counterfeit' stamps?

#25

If this is really about a fine for counterfeiting a stamp, isn't £5 astonishingly low? In the US that's a serious federal felony with up to five years in prison. https://puryearlaw.com/2015/12/27/federal-counterfeit-postag...

The issue is, the recipient is paying the fine.

I send you a letter with a fake stamp, you pay.

The £5 is an inconvenience, something you’d pay while tutting “what is the world coming to”.

The sender is none the wiser.

7.3bn letters delivered in 22-23 (https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0032/272795/...)

If 0.01% of that are tagged as counterfeit, that’s £3,650,000 in fines.

Re: Why are so many people being hit with £5 fines for 'counterfeit' stamps?

#26

Royal Mail needs to be slapped with a massive Freedom of Information request. We need to see how many fines have been paid. We had one of these a year and a half ago, similar story. Seemed BS back then, so this could be a big problem.

Royal Mail, as a private (well… public) company, is not subject to FOIA requests.

They're a creature of the state, you can't practically opt out of Royal Mail. If they're not subject to FOIA then they need to be.

Re: Why are so many people being hit with £5 fines for 'counterfeit' stamps?

#27

Royal Mail needs to be slapped with a massive Freedom of Information request. We need to see how many fines have been paid. We had one of these a year and a half ago, similar story. Seemed BS back then, so this could be a big problem.

Royal Mail, as a private (well… public) company, is not subject to FOIA requests.

Well… that’s convenient. The more you know. Isn’t privatisation great!

Re: Why are so many people being hit with £5 fines for 'counterfeit' stamps?

#28
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Royal Mail, as a private (well… public) company, is not subject to FOIA requests.

They're a creature of the state, you can't practically opt out of Royal Mail. If they're not subject to FOIA then they need to be.

Also the legislation splitting the Post Office from Royal Mail and privatising it happening in 2011/12 just looks even more shady in light of all the Post Office stuff.

Re: Why are so many people being hit with £5 fines for 'counterfeit' stamps?

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a scandal engine that occasionally delivers mail. No accountability, no repercussions.

Royal Mail and the Post Office are two separate organisations.

I am aware. It seems, regardless of institution, that no one at these levels of UK public good can take responsibility. It is as if the apathy has been institutionalized in a declining nation state. Where and how do find someone who cares and the authority to do something about it?

If you told me yet another UK institution had systemic issues (NHS?), I would not be surprised, and that is very sad. It should not be this hard to do better. Right? Or am I just an ignorant Yankee?

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