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What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

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181–190 of 568 posts

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. The hardware design of the cockpit is intended to be such that any computer inputs also move the pilot's controls, so that the pilots can countermand computer inputs if necessary. In this case, software was written such that this was not possible. The software that operates MCAS operates on a garbage-in-garbage-out model, like most software. There was no software written to determine if the incoming data…

> At the end of the day, if the person who wrote that software had written it differently, then those planes would not have crashed and hundreds of people would not have died. You can't really blame the software engineers. This was all thought out and tightly specified by Boeing to their avionics subcontractor (Collins, IIRC). This is how it was designed and engineered to work at a systems level - it is a design hack…

Buying an airplane is not the same as buying a consumer item from a big box retailer.

It's more like buying an expensive car/enterprise software. There are options. Options cost extra....

excerpts from https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/business/boeing-safety-fe...:

As the pilots of the doomed Boeing jets in Ethiopia and Indonesia fought to control their planes, they lacked two notable safety features in their cockpits.

One reason: Boeing charged extra for them.

For Boeing and other aircraft manufacturers, the practice of charging to upgrade a standard plane can be lucrative. Top airlines around the world must pay handsomely to have the jets they order fitted with customized add-ons.

Boeing’s optional safety features, in part, could have helped the pilots detect any erroneous readings. One of the optional upgrades, the angle of attack indicator, displays the readings of the two sensors. The other, called a disagree light, is activated if those sensors are at odds with one another.

Boeing will soon update the MCAS software, and will also make the disagree light standard on all new 737 Max planes, according to a person familiar with the changes, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they have not been made public. Boeing started moving on the software fix and the equipment change before the crash in Ethiopia.

The angle of attack indicator will remain an option that airlines can buy. Neither feature was mandated by the Federal Aviation Administration. All 737 Max jets have been grounded.

“They’re critical, and cost almost nothing for the airlines to install,” said Bjorn Fehrm, an analyst at the aviation consultancy Leeham. “Boeing charges for them because it can. But they’re vital for safety.”

“There are so many things that should not be optional, and many airlines want the cheapest airplane you can get,” said Mark H. Goodrich, an aviation lawyer and former engineering test pilot. “And Boeing is able to say, ‘Hey, it was available.’”

But what Boeing doesn’t say, he added, is that it has become “a great profit center” for the manufacturer.

The three American airlines that bought the 737 Max each took a different approach to outfitting the cockpits.

American Airlines, which ordered 100 of the planes and has 24 in its fleet, bought both the angle of attack indicator and the disagree light, the company said.

Southwest Airlines, which ordered 280 of the planes and counts 36 in its fleet so far, had already purchased the disagree alert option, and it also installed an angle of attack indicator in a display mounted above the pilots’ heads. After the Lion Air crash, Southwest said it would modify its 737 Max fleet to place the angle of attack indicator on the pilots’ main computer screens.

United Airlines, which ordered 137 of the planes and has received 14, did not select the indicators or the disagree light. A United spokesman said the airline does not include the features because its pilots use other data to fly the plane.

When it was rolled out, MCAS took readings from only one sensor on any given flight, leaving the system vulnerable to a single point of failure. One theory in the Lion Air crash is that MCAS was receiving faulty data from one of the sensors, prompting an unrecoverable nose dive.

In the software update that Boeing says is coming soon, MCAS will be modified to take readings from both sensors. If there is a meaningful disagreement between the readings, MCAS will be disabled.

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should add that our short term market-based approach to economic activity fails to produce appropriate housing outcomes, and that the approaches in Vienna or Singapore could end our homelessness crisis and make everyone happier. I recently read a doctor’s account of the homeless people who use the ER as a community space by complaining of minor illnesses, and it seems so clear to me it would be cheaper to give them…

>and that the approaches in Vienna Vienna's approach worked because it happened after WW2 when the country was bombed and broken, land, construction materials and labor were dirt cheap, so the state built over half the city's homes and turned them into public housing cheaply no problem. But fast forward to today where most of the land and buildings in a city are privately owned, how to you expect a city, any city, to…

Right so you’re saying Vienna’s approached worked but we would have to change things to make it work for us. That is exactly what I am saying too.

I’m also saying that it could be worth considerable effort to try to make those changes, because the reward is a much better system.

For example we might introduce bills now that help stabilize (reduce) housing prices by limiting large scale corporate speculation on housing, such as these two bills [below] introduced into congress. With cheaper housing available, the need for social housing goes down and so does the cost to build it, dramatically lowering the total cost to implement.

https://projects.propublica.org/represent/bills/117/hr9246

https://projects.propublica.org/represent/bills/117/s5151

> everyone would be screaming communism

Yes and part of what I’m saying is that we might want to stop doing that and think about what is actually going to fix our problems, even if gasp the government is involved. Nobody can afford housing and our planes are falling out of the sky and we’re having a cold-war political debate while every other major country offers cheaper medical care and education.

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#183
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the irony of good QA. 1) Company starts to notice a lot of quality problems. 2) Company institutes a good QA program. 3) Company notices less quality problems. 4) Company cuts QA program because there seems to be less need for it. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. (The same can be said for safety when dealing with low probability events).

Yes. It is raining. I use an Umbrella. Still raining, but I am no longer getting wet. I must not need the umbrella. Close the Umbrella Get wet again.

In that case, the causality is easy to determine. But that’s not the case with more complex systems, so it’s easier to rationalize a bias (I don’t need this expensive QA)

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#184

If you read this article looking for new or surprising insight, you won't find it. It is not new information that Boeing started a rapid decline shortly after the McDonnell Douglas merger, and it will be unsurprising to you to hear that shortly afterwards, Boeing began abusing its most senior employees into leaving. What this article offers is new detail into exactly how Boeing has gone about cannibalizing itself. Th…

It's really hard to recover from a downgrade in culture. I hear the same kinds of things about IBM. I'm pretty sure there are other examples.

The tough part is - it is sad.

Read about boeing and Tex Johnston:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_M._Johnston#Boeing_Compa...

and IBM invented the PC:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Personal_Computer

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#185
There are real problems at Boeing and those are real issues, but let's beware of the BS that comes with the kind of widespread pile-on that's happening now.

This article reads like an Internet rant to me, with the sarcasm, hyperbole, and ridicule. Those things aren't awful in themselves (though they've become very overused and tiresome to me), but they crowd out actual facts, details, nuance, complexities. If you write 'it's the worst thing ever', you omit where and how it's bad, where it's not, the consequences, the trade-offs, etc. I don't learn what happened, how, or why, just that you are really, really, really pissed off.

Examples:

* pieces are flying off the Boeing planes actually in use at an alarming rate

* to train the workforce to properly put together a plane.

* obligatory vanity “leadership” book - note the ridicule and scare quotes.

* suppliers, many of which lacked engineering departments* -- now using fonts for emphasis

* in a perpetual state of unlearning all the lessons it had absorbed over a 90-year ascent to the pinnacle of global manufacturing

* Qatar Airways had become so disgusted ..., coincidentally matching the author's emotion

* one of the most pathetic plea bargains in the history of American justice

It's like series of Reddit comments, and the world certainly doesn't need more of that. The author's and American Prospect's quality is no better than Boeing's.

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I grow less and less tolerant of “stuff just is, you can’t, like, judge it, man” the older I get.

A lot of people (sizeable majority?) seem to go the opposite way when they get older, so that's pretty interesting.

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It just took 25 years to finally happen. "Quality inertia" is one thing which allows for giant amounts of damage to be done long before the wheels visibly come off, as deviance gets normalised (and even mandated in cases such as Boeing) and the company eats its reserve of quality and goodwill, it starts going off-track in small ways before it falls off a cliff. It took closer to 20 years than 25 for the wheels to c…

Where can I read more about quality inertia , find other case studies, etc?

There was a recent discussion right here on HN about "trading trust": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39394990

Basically, many of these companies took decades to reach these positions where they're trusted. A bunch of managers rightfully figured out this was an asset that could be easily traded away for increased profits and they'd be gone by the time anyone noticed the devastation they left behind.

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It just took 25 years to finally happen. "Quality inertia" is one thing which allows for giant amounts of damage to be done long before the wheels visibly come off, as deviance gets normalised (and even mandated in cases such as Boeing) and the company eats its reserve of quality and goodwill, it starts going off-track in small ways before it falls off a cliff. It took closer to 20 years than 25 for the wheels to c…

Where can I read more about quality inertia , find other case studies, etc?

https://govinfo.library.unt.edu/caib/news/report/default.htm...

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what you are saying is that twitter, oh sorry x, is going to break down completely in around 2048? :)

I doubt xitter has as much quality buffer as Boeing had in '97, and Elon's brutalisation of it was a lot less gradual.

Does quality matter as much for X as it does for Boeing? A closer example to Boeing is Tesla and SpaceX. Tesla is a mixed bag of good and bad stuff. But SpaceX is a marvel and essentially has no competitors.

Compare X to media. Since the bridge collapse in the Baltimore I have read interesting analysis on X and reddit, not the best medium, but yet did not come across a single decent article about it in the media.

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#190
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they generally don’t tell a friend “if anything happens to me, it's not suicide”.

From TFA, it seems that it was someone else (still alive) who said that.

From "the f..ing article"?
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