The window for great-grandmothers is closing • Hacker News Board

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#441

Post by 91bananas » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 4:56 PM UTC

latexr wrote: post #399

hateful wrote: post #373

I've always had this weird thought - that doesn't really pass the ethics test, but here it is anyway. I was raised by my grandmother - let's just say my parents were not ready. And I know a lot of parents that want their kids to have kids but the kids aren't ready. What if it would become the norm for Grandparents to raise the children? That way the second generation can focus on their careers, etc and the first gene…

> The whole point is that this happens all the time What happens all the time is an adult raising their our children and then later on raising their grandchildren. But what you’re suggesting is having old people with zero experience raising anyone taking care of their grandchildren. I don’t quite see that as a clearcut case of success.

Wait the people that raised the kids that then had kids have no experience raising kids?

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#442

Post by lotsofpulp » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 4:58 PM UTC

carlosjobim wrote: post #419

lotsofpulp wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Young working women (and men) of today normally have almost no financial independence, A greater proportion of women today have more financial independence than they have ever had in the past. > A stay at home mother in the past with a part time job had much more financial independence together with her husband This is financial dependence, not independence. > Basically the current elderly generation used indoctrin…

> This is financial dependence, not independence. Do you really think that somebody who owns their own house and has supplementary income is less independent than somebody who works full time and owns nothing? The first has the option to stop working, the second will be out on the streets if they do. > Nonsense. I imagine it is pretty insulting for a woman to read that they could only be capable of wanting control of…

We are simply living in different realities. In mine, women only (relatively) recently obtained the right to vote, and have legal systems that try to prevent discrimination against them in the labor market. And this is not even worldwide.

In the world I live in, many or most women are still contending with uneven workloads in the home:

https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/real-reason-south-koreans...

>and grueling workplace norms that are inhospitable to family life, especially for women, who are still expected to do the bulk of housework and child care.

>Do you really think that somebody who owns their own house and has supplementary income is less independent than somebody who works full time and owns nothing? The first has the option to stop working, the second will be out on the streets if they do.

False dichotomies, and also most women did not own their own house outright and have supplementary income. Either in laws own it, or they had mortgages and had to work outside the home, or they were expected to do all the housework. There was no option to stop working (housework is work).

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#443

Post by latexr » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 5:17 PM UTC

91bananas wrote: post #441

latexr wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole point is that this happens all the time What happens all the time is an adult raising their our children and then later on raising their grandchildren. But what you’re suggesting is having old people with zero experience raising anyone taking care of their grandchildren. I don’t quite see that as a clearcut case of success.

Wait the people that raised the kids that then had kids have no experience raising kids?

No, you misunderstood completely. Under the OP’s proposal, you have people raising their grandkids, not their kids.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#444

Post by jffhn » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 5:21 PM UTC

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #385

hateful wrote: post #373

I've always had this weird thought - that doesn't really pass the ethics test, but here it is anyway. I was raised by my grandmother - let's just say my parents were not ready. And I know a lot of parents that want their kids to have kids but the kids aren't ready. What if it would become the norm for Grandparents to raise the children? That way the second generation can focus on their careers, etc and the first gene…

> And I know a lot of parents that want their kids to have kids but the kids aren't ready. ... The next generation would happen earlier, the first generation would have their grand kids and the second generation would have time to "wait" for whatever reason. I mean, putting aside the other good comments this has received, why are the kids not ready? Because if I look around at myself and my peers, I see a lot of peop…

>I see a lot of people who absolutely want kids but feel they can't have them, for a number of reasons

I remember thinking about that in the street, and then be overtaken by a rom family, the father pushing the kids in a shopping cart and the mother walking alongside.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#445

Post by Marsymars » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 5:33 PM UTC

brabel wrote: post #361

somenameforme wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another thing not yet mentioned is that it literally becomes physically more difficult to have children as you age. Female fertility starts to rapidly drop in their thirties, and many will hit menopause in their 40s. The exact age is somewhat random, and some women will even enter menopause in their 30s. Before I had children I thought it would be relatively easy - that's why you use birth control after all. But when…

I've been trying to convince my wife to have at least one child, but I'm afraid it's too late already. She's 43. You've just made me think it would be a bad idea anyway at this point :(. Oh well, at least I have many nieces.

In a kinda similar boat, though less "trying to convince" and more "trying to decide if we want a kid". (Because really, the boat for multiple kids for us has sailed.) My wife's five years younger, but we only met three years ago, so it feels like we've been speed-running our relationship while simultaneously dealing with life and career stuff.

I live across the country from my nephew, but if I end up not having kids, he can look forward to notably more visits and funtime with the uncle.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#446

Post by jader201 » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 5:36 PM UTC

latexr wrote: post #399

hateful wrote: post #373

I've always had this weird thought - that doesn't really pass the ethics test, but here it is anyway. I was raised by my grandmother - let's just say my parents were not ready. And I know a lot of parents that want their kids to have kids but the kids aren't ready. What if it would become the norm for Grandparents to raise the children? That way the second generation can focus on their careers, etc and the first gene…

> The whole point is that this happens all the time What happens all the time is an adult raising their our children and then later on raising their grandchildren. But what you’re suggesting is having old people with zero experience raising anyone taking care of their grandchildren. I don’t quite see that as a clearcut case of success.

I think you’re missing the point (but possible I am).

My understanding is that OP is proposing that since the grandparents would be raising the kids, this would incentivize people to have kids much younger, e.g. in their early 20s, or even teens.

So the “grandparents” would be in their early/mid 40s, or even late 30s.

Definitely not “old people”.

And zero experience parenting, yes (just like any new parent today), but definitely more life experience, and likely more mature.

Not saying I’d advocate for this — I think there are still some flaws with this — but an interesting hypothetical that’s fun to discuss.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#447

Post by aidenn0 » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 5:39 PM UTC

paulryanrogers wrote: post #181

aidenn0 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This retort is true of literally everything involved in raising kids. Substitute "parents" "preschool teachers" "sports coach" &c. for "grandparents" in the sentence and it's still true for the domain for the children. It's true that with grandparents you have a maximum of 4 to choose from, but you might not have more than 4 preschools to choose from either.

Arguably you can chose other teachers and coaches and daycare

You have up to 4 grandparents to choose from (in the case where all 4 are still living, but separated).

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#448

Post by aidenn0 » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 5:47 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #255

rayiner wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> It’s just something old white guys said in the 1960s without support, like Jungian archetypes and things like that. It is that, but it's not just that; the concept is attested farther back. https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Loyola#Disputed > Give me the child for the first seven years and I will give you the man. If Voltaire invented it from whole cloth, that's still the 18th century. Though on your topic,…

Oh man Piaget. Responsible for bad information on kids for both Object permanence, and abstract reasoning.

His views on egocentrism at least seem not as obviously wrong as those two; not sure what modern studies have to say.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#449

Post by munificent » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 6:07 PM UTC

nyokodo wrote: post #207

munificent wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's complicated. It's definitely true that we're less mature in our 20s than we are in our 30s. But, also, maturity doesn't just accumulate on us like growth rings. You can easily be a completely immature thirty-something if you don't have the kind of challenging life experiences that cause maturity. Probably the number one life experience that increases maturity is having kids . If you'd had kids younger, you would…

> no one should deliberately have children as a tool for their own person growth I’m not suggesting you’re saying this, but there seems to be an idea floating around that any motivation to have children that incorporates your own good is evil. There is absolutely nothing wrong with anticipating and desiring an ancillary benefit to having children or from any other relationship for that matter. Yes, if it’s your prima…

> there seems to be an idea floating around that any motivation to have children that incorporates your own good is evil.

This is a really good observation.

Yes, there's a whole toxic thread in today's culture that if you are not 100% altruistic towards any dependent then you must be an evil person who is traumatizing them. It seems like there are a lot of people out there today who believe that no one is good enough to deserve to have kids or pets.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#450

Post by munificent » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 6:09 PM UTC

Xenoamorphous wrote: post #176

munificent wrote: post #115

If you ever sit down and really think about it, it is absolutely wild how profoundly the invention of the birth control pill has changed the course of human history, our cultures, and human society. It's gotta be up there with, like, writing and fire, in terms of shaping the destiny of our species.

Why that and not other contraceptives?

1. Scale of adoption.

2. Consistent effectiveness.

3. Able to be unilaterally adopted by women without consent of men (aside from systemic legal prohibition).

The pill, to a greater degree than any other contraceptive, enables the people who are most responsible for the consequences of pregnancy to have the most control over pregnancy.