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The window for great-grandmothers is closing

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Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#381

If you haven't read the article, it's about how people having kids later means you won't meet your great grandparents. My mom had me when she was 23, and her mom had her at 22. I'm in my forties and still have two living grandparents, and am very grateful for them. I remember a lot of days where my grandmother watched me and my sister, and she was able to do that because she was only in her late 40's herself and plen…

It weirds me out a lot when people talk about parenting and family planning like this. Like, having kids should be planned around strategically based on factors like "are my parents young enough to be supplemental child care" over "do I have the mental and financial readiness to be responsible for raising a human being? And do I even want to do that?"

If people want earlier parenting, then create a society that supports it. One with living wages, universal health care, and programs to provide childcare for working people. Because those are reasons people hesitate to have kids, and those situations are not improving.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#382

I've always had this weird thought - that doesn't really pass the ethics test, but here it is anyway. I was raised by my grandmother - let's just say my parents were not ready. And I know a lot of parents that want their kids to have kids but the kids aren't ready. What if it would become the norm for Grandparents to raise the children? That way the second generation can focus on their careers, etc and the first gene…

This is the norm in countries like South Korea, and much of Eastern Europe

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#383
post #375
post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think consensus with the partner on how to raise a child would be a given. I don't understand how people get to late stages of a relationship before starting to talk about having kids. And yes, parenthood is hard, it's tough, you can focus on that, but you could also focus on how meaningful it is. I would never push parenthood on anyone, I understand it's a personal choice. Honestly though, I just feel sad about pe…

"I think consensus with the partner on how to raise a child would be a given." Looking around, it really isn't with many of the parents I know. There are just so many things one can disagree about. Food choices alone are very hard for some. Sugar or not, how much, and vegan diet or not, .. (We try to be as pragmatic as possible, as healthy as possible, but not dogmatic). Then, is it ok to play with toy weapons, what…

No, I agree with you, maybe I was wrong in assuming parent meant it in a more generalistic way.

But then again, the points you bring up, I'd argue it's quite difficult to figure all that out before having a kid. Everything I said I meant as having in common some general guidelines and a direction, not every specific detail.

Having a shared, defined direction will also help you in settling all the "smaller" disagreements, but I guess my reaction comes from seeing many couples that don't have that general direction figured out yet, i.e. getting married and suddenly husband finds out wife is not that keen about having kids.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#384

I've always had this weird thought - that doesn't really pass the ethics test, but here it is anyway. I was raised by my grandmother - let's just say my parents were not ready. And I know a lot of parents that want their kids to have kids but the kids aren't ready. What if it would become the norm for Grandparents to raise the children? That way the second generation can focus on their careers, etc and the first gene…

IMHO the part about the kids not being ready is crucial.

If they're just not well off financially I'd see your idea happen (but then, we already see grand parents giving a hand financially in these kind of circumstances)

But if they're not ready mentally, there would be mountains of issues with their relationship with their child. For instance, do they even fully understand it's their child under their responsibility ? Can they continue raising their child when the grand parents can't anymore ? How well will they take it if suddenly they have to give up important things to completely focus on the kid(s) ? On the other hand will they be able to step in if the grand parents aren't fit for that ? etc.

I think it would work better if parents give it a fair try, but end up being inept and have the grandparents step in. Giving up from the start would be a worse path IMHO.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#385

I've always had this weird thought - that doesn't really pass the ethics test, but here it is anyway. I was raised by my grandmother - let's just say my parents were not ready. And I know a lot of parents that want their kids to have kids but the kids aren't ready. What if it would become the norm for Grandparents to raise the children? That way the second generation can focus on their careers, etc and the first gene…

> And I know a lot of parents that want their kids to have kids but the kids aren't ready. ... The next generation would happen earlier, the first generation would have their grand kids and the second generation would have time to "wait" for whatever reason.

I mean, putting aside the other good comments this has received, why are the kids not ready? Because if I look around at myself and my peers, I see a lot of people who absolutely want kids but feel they can't have them, for a number of reasons, but not unimportant reasons:

- A lot of people are delaying because they don't feel financially stable enough, because of the increasing costs of lifes essentials, not the least of which is housing, and/or student loan debt which was foisted on them by the selfish decisions of the aforementioned grandparents.

- Tons of people are avoiding kids because they don't want to bring them into a world as unstable as ours, that instability expressed as some combination of: our ever worsening biosphere and the long-term threats of climate change, the aforementioned everything-getting-more-expensive-all-the-time while wages continue stagnating, the political instability with micro-wars playing out all over the place, the economic precarity as our system continues enabling bad actors, the social instability caused by deepening political divides and extremisms literally everywhere over what would otherwise be such benign things, and for flavor, a few things that absolutely deserve extremist responses...

Like, one of the first things that goes away when an animal population is stressed on a macro-scale is reproduction. It seems to me if we want to promote reproduction again, we need to make our world less... awful? Like by and large, my life is great, but I'm child-free and that decision was informed partly by the fact that I have to meter my intake of global news lest I become so depressed I can't function, and aside of that, I started making six figures 2 years ago which is legitimately a thing I never thought would happen, and yet in those subsequent 2 years I have never felt poorer because every last thing costs more now than it ever has, even asking my mother.

I think it's impossible to divorce a discussion like this from the fact that there are absolutely pages upon pages of good, rational, logical reasons one can write to not have children and commensurate with that fact, we see birth rates plummeting all over the place.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#386

I've always had this weird thought - that doesn't really pass the ethics test, but here it is anyway. I was raised by my grandmother - let's just say my parents were not ready. And I know a lot of parents that want their kids to have kids but the kids aren't ready. What if it would become the norm for Grandparents to raise the children? That way the second generation can focus on their careers, etc and the first gene…

I would like to read the SF story fleshing this out!

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#387
post #383
post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I think consensus with the partner on how to raise a child would be a given." Looking around, it really isn't with many of the parents I know. There are just so many things one can disagree about. Food choices alone are very hard for some. Sugar or not, how much, and vegan diet or not, .. (We try to be as pragmatic as possible, as healthy as possible, but not dogmatic). Then, is it ok to play with toy weapons, what…

No, I agree with you, maybe I was wrong in assuming parent meant it in a more generalistic way. But then again, the points you bring up, I'd argue it's quite difficult to figure all that out before having a kid. Everything I said I meant as having in common some general guidelines and a direction, not every specific detail. Having a shared, defined direction will also help you in settling all the "smaller" disagreeme…

"getting married and suddenly husband finds out wife is not that keen about having kids"

Yes, stuff like this. It seems many people avoid topics that could be uncomfortable, so rather smile and go along and hope for the best ... until reality hits them hard. And then some decide to do stupid scheming how to still have babies. And this is then a really bad foundation.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#388
post #381

If you haven't read the article, it's about how people having kids later means you won't meet your great grandparents. My mom had me when she was 23, and her mom had her at 22. I'm in my forties and still have two living grandparents, and am very grateful for them. I remember a lot of days where my grandmother watched me and my sister, and she was able to do that because she was only in her late 40's herself and plen…

It weirds me out a lot when people talk about parenting and family planning like this. Like, having kids should be planned around strategically based on factors like "are my parents young enough to be supplemental child care" over "do I have the mental and financial readiness to be responsible for raising a human being? And do I even want to do that?" If people want earlier parenting, then create a society that suppo…

Do you have evidence for the second paragraph? The wealthiest countries are generally those with lower birth rates, although the very lowest fertility is in upper-middle income regions like Eastern Europe and E Asia

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#389

I've always had this weird thought - that doesn't really pass the ethics test, but here it is anyway. I was raised by my grandmother - let's just say my parents were not ready. And I know a lot of parents that want their kids to have kids but the kids aren't ready. What if it would become the norm for Grandparents to raise the children? That way the second generation can focus on their careers, etc and the first gene…

From my limited vantage point (in-laws) this is normal in the Filipino culture. My wife and I moved away from her parents so we didn't do this but her sister's kids were probably a 70/30 split in being at the grandparents' house. Her cousin's kids were the same. In fact, many of them would send the kids to the Philippines for months at a time where the grandparents lived to be raised by them. It felt really odd to me at first but that's more because it wasn't how I was raised plus I didn't have any grandparents that were still alive when I grew up.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#390

I've always had this weird thought - that doesn't really pass the ethics test, but here it is anyway. I was raised by my grandmother - let's just say my parents were not ready. And I know a lot of parents that want their kids to have kids but the kids aren't ready. What if it would become the norm for Grandparents to raise the children? That way the second generation can focus on their careers, etc and the first gene…

This is eh very common in many parts of the world. I myself have probably spent more time with my grandparents than my parents at certain times of my life. Often this happens if grandparents and parents live closeby and children cant go to daycare for whatever reason.
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