The window for great-grandmothers is closing • Hacker News Board

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#371

Post by 082349872349872 » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 12:50 PM UTC

082349872349872 wrote: post #94

titzer wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My family has really long generations. Going back 7 generations for me patrilinearly is exactly 280 years; 40 years per generation. When I was young my grandparents were already in their 80s and both grandfathers gone before I was 14. Sadly, both had mental decline (stroke, Alzheimers) and I never knew them in their right mind. They'd be in their 110s today. The idea of knowing my great-grandparents, who would be in…

In the line I've been able (most just showed up in the New World from somewhere or other...) to trace back to 7 generations, it was a little less, but they were in the colonies before the US was a thing, so more than 35, less than 40 years per generation? My wife can go back 7 as well, and her family has also tended towards high parental investment in offspring; next time I'm in the cellar I'll have to check but I'd…

(it turns out my wife's family took more generations to get back into the XVIII, so that line runs ~30 years per generation)

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#372

Post by jwalton » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 1:05 PM UTC

somenameforme wrote: post #313

serf wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I can distinctly remember it hitting me like a bus that I was now wholly responsible for a human. the problem of course being that some individuals never hit upon that realization -- and the statistics regarding the matter make it look like that revelation is more likely to come to an individual who is older, financially secure, and mentally well. > It’s harder when you are older, but I’m financially better off so t…

Another thing not yet mentioned is that it literally becomes physically more difficult to have children as you age. Female fertility starts to rapidly drop in their thirties, and many will hit menopause in their 40s. The exact age is somewhat random, and some women will even enter menopause in their 30s. Before I had children I thought it would be relatively easy - that's why you use birth control after all. But when…

I thought about replying with something exactly like this, but generally this sentiment gets downvoted to oblivion.

I’ll add that we waited longer than we should have, and while it’s hard to conclusively say we would have had an easier time earlier, we ended up spending hundreds of thousands in fertility treatments.

You always think you have more time, but as they say “it’s later than you think.”

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#373

Post by hateful » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 1:05 PM UTC

I've always had this weird thought - that doesn't really pass the ethics test, but here it is anyway.

I was raised by my grandmother - let's just say my parents were not ready. And I know a lot of parents that want their kids to have kids but the kids aren't ready. What if it would become the norm for Grandparents to raise the children? That way the second generation can focus on their careers, etc and the first generation could raise the third. That wouldn't mean the second generation wouldn't have a role and be a part of the process. Of course, there would have to be consent on each level - and if it was part of the culture maybe there would be. Also, technology may have a role in this also - if no one has to actually carry the children, the second generation could be more willing.

The whole point is that this happens all the time, but it's always seen as a break from the norm, not the norm. What if we just embraced it?

The next generation would happen earlier, the first generation would have their grand kids and the second generation would have time to "wait" for whatever reason.

Again, I know this doesn't really work out, but it's a thought I've always had.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#374

Post by erispoe » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 1:13 PM UTC

somenameforme wrote: post #363

brabel wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been trying to convince my wife to have at least one child, but I'm afraid it's too late already. She's 43. You've just made me think it would be a bad idea anyway at this point :(. Oh well, at least I have many nieces.

I think it's more like start early > start late > start never. There's more hurdles, and less chance of success - but I definitely wouldn't say it's a bad idea. The worst that happens is nothing happens. I sincerely hope you two at least try. Good luck.

It seems like she just doesn't want to have kids.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#375

Post by lukan » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 1:13 PM UTC

arkey wrote: post #356

lukan wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The problem is that it's nearly impossible to convey to a childless person how meaningful parenthood will be to their life." It is also hard to convey, how hard it can be, making the transition from only taking care of yourself, to also being 100% responsible for someone else. Combine that with little sleep and relationships that were not working very good before and it is no wonder so many children end up in foster…

I think consensus with the partner on how to raise a child would be a given. I don't understand how people get to late stages of a relationship before starting to talk about having kids. And yes, parenthood is hard, it's tough, you can focus on that, but you could also focus on how meaningful it is. I would never push parenthood on anyone, I understand it's a personal choice. Honestly though, I just feel sad about pe…

"I think consensus with the partner on how to raise a child would be a given."

Looking around, it really isn't with many of the parents I know. There are just so many things one can disagree about. Food choices alone are very hard for some. Sugar or not, how much, and vegan diet or not, .. (We try to be as pragmatic as possible, as healthy as possible, but not dogmatic). Then, is it ok to play with toy weapons, what movies to watch at what age, how much screen time at all, ...

With my partner we were quite clear how to do it in theory before. But in reality there are many things we disagree - and then it is an art, to find a consensus about it, while the kids are watching. Otherwise it is an invitation for them for learning how to manipulate.

So good for you, if it was quite easy for you. For many it isn't for various reasons. So some probably just should have the courage to go with it, before they are too old. For others it might be better to wait.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#376

Post by johnkpaul » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 1:16 PM UTC

hateful wrote: post #373

I've always had this weird thought - that doesn't really pass the ethics test, but here it is anyway. I was raised by my grandmother - let's just say my parents were not ready. And I know a lot of parents that want their kids to have kids but the kids aren't ready. What if it would become the norm for Grandparents to raise the children? That way the second generation can focus on their careers, etc and the first gene…

Anthropologically, I think that this isn't super far from what has already happened for humans. Grandmothers specifically had a lot of repsonsibilities and importance and I believe that's why they generally live longer than grandfathers.

Instead of being about career development, it's been about specializing in hunter/gatherer stuff while still able bodied.

https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/grandmothers-a...

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#377

Post by WarOnPrivacy » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 1:17 PM UTC

modeless wrote: post #29

> this source for example claims global life expectancy jumped from around 47 to 72 from 1950 to 2022 I believe this is because of reductions in child mortality more than increases in adult lifespan. So it doesn't affect the number of great grandmothers that much. Having kids older is definitely a big change for society and individual families, though. Every day as a parent I wish I was 15 years younger and my parent…

> I believe this is because of reductions in child mortality more than increases in adult lifespan. So it doesn't affect the number of great grandmothers that much.

Accepting that, I'd offer that more is a value somewhere above 50%. That leaves a lot of modern people who aren't dying in their 20s-50s.

I look at a lot of death certs (genealogy) and and realize we've had a lot of advances in treatment (pneumonia), regulation (black lung) and health practices (tuberculosis, dysentery). Many routine killers from 80+ years ago are less common/less deadly now.

Last night I ran across a death from Tuberculous Meningitis and my take was - What even the frak? How did our ancestors survive millennia where life just sprayed death at us?

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#378

Post by jzb » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 1:18 PM UTC

hateful wrote: post #373

I've always had this weird thought - that doesn't really pass the ethics test, but here it is anyway. I was raised by my grandmother - let's just say my parents were not ready. And I know a lot of parents that want their kids to have kids but the kids aren't ready. What if it would become the norm for Grandparents to raise the children? That way the second generation can focus on their careers, etc and the first gene…

Even leaving aside the ethics (which...yikes) I think this kind of falls down, logically.

Parents want to become grandparents after having the experience of being parents. If you cut the "being parents" out of that cycle, why would you even want grand kids? And having been parents prepares grandparents to step in if needed. If you skip the parenting step, why would they be any better at it just because they're 20 years older?

Also, frankly, infants are hard. They're great when you can give them back. But the loss of sleep and everything is something that does not go well with being in your 40s and beyond. It's hard at any age, but doubly so later in life.

All that said, it'd be great if society placed more emphasis on extended family involvement and if we start to really embrace remote work that might be more possible. (e.g., stop making people move thousands of miles away from their families just for jobs...) But accelerating child-having just for the sake of great-grandparents... bad idea, even leaving aside the ethics.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#379

Post by Spivak » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 1:19 PM UTC

zachmu wrote: post #153

silverquiet wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet... > The recent proliferation of studies examining cross-national variation in the association between parenthood and happiness reveal accumulating evidence of lower levels of happiness among parents than nonparents in most advanced industrialized societies. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5222535/ I'm sure it is meaningful, but not everyone is willing or able to take on the stress of raising chi…

IMHO opinion you have to take happiness surveys like this with a grain of salt. For one thing, there is no such thing as a happiness ruler, this is all based on survey responses and subjective ideas of what it means to be happy. The effect sizes are small and inconsistent. The same surveys frequently show industrial countries significantly less happy than developing countries, and yet few people would choose to live…

I guess the litmus test is would you make the same argument if the results of the study had been the opposite? If they had said industrial life and being a parent increased happiness would you be just as skeptical?

I doubt you would say woah woah there people are sleeping on Guatemala, does being childfree get the same treatment?

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#380

Post by pard68 » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 1:24 PM UTC

modeless wrote: post #29

> this source for example claims global life expectancy jumped from around 47 to 72 from 1950 to 2022 I believe this is because of reductions in child mortality more than increases in adult lifespan. So it doesn't affect the number of great grandmothers that much. Having kids older is definitely a big change for society and individual families, though. Every day as a parent I wish I was 15 years younger and my parent…

Yes the average age stat drastically skews our perception of how old people were in prior centuries because it includes infant and childhood deaths. This is valid for an average, but it doesn't relate life expectancy for someone who made it to 18.