Show HN: I made a cheap alternative to college-level math & physics tutoring • Hacker News Board

Re: Show HN: I made a cheap alternative to college-level math & physics tutoring

#171

Post by hnfong » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 7:05 AM UTC

eltonlin wrote: post #160

andrewlgood wrote: post #46

I am always curious regarding new education solutions. I firmly believe the US pre-college education systems are fundamentally broken most benefit from edtech (huge fan of Khan Academy). As an MIT alum myself ('89), I am surprised to hear your description of your experience at MIT. Did you experience this across all classes and departments or only for a few (e.g. 18.01 which is required for most freshman)? While cert…

I couldn't convey the technicality across, but the bad experiences I had were mostly localized in course 6 classes - Intro to Algorithms, Design & Analysis of Algorithms, Intro to Machine Learning. I actually did very well in math & physics because Office Hours were much more available, and they tried teaching in different formats (e.g. TEAL). >incredibly open policy on working together Yes this was mostly the case -…

With the CS and ML hype in full force these days (people with CS majors increasing at double digit % points every year), it does seem like the courses you mentioned might have been taking in a bit too many students and they genuinely have a staffing problem due to sudden demand increases in the past few years..

Re: Show HN: I made a cheap alternative to college-level math & physics tutoring

#172

Post by Xakari » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 8:01 AM UTC

newtone wrote: post #125

> it’s very hard to catch-up: once you fall behind, you have no way to review past material efficiently enough to compensate the difference - like credit card debt It is surprising how many people working in education do not understand this. We have clear understanding on technical debt or cycles of poverty but absolutely no understanding of how learning debt evolves among students. It is so evident that couple of mo…

Absolutely, there is no meaningful discourse and action aimed at leveling the playing field for students who have accumulated learning debt over the years.

At your org, These are all human tutors on the other end!? or AI ones? I'm still hesitant about the effectiveness of AI-driven tutoring.

Re: Show HN: I made a cheap alternative to college-level math & physics tutoring

#173

Post by newtone » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 8:04 AM UTC

eltonlin wrote: post #156

newtone wrote: post #125

> it’s very hard to catch-up: once you fall behind, you have no way to review past material efficiently enough to compensate the difference - like credit card debt It is surprising how many people working in education do not understand this. We have clear understanding on technical debt or cycles of poverty but absolutely no understanding of how learning debt evolves among students. It is so evident that couple of mo…

>"All the debt is assumed to vanish when you start a new session. Nobody acknowledges that the kid has been collecting debt for a decade now" I think you articulate it really well. It speaks to me at a personal level because my stunted academic growth in college still affects me today, and it will never go away. Good luck with Filo!

I feel you more than ever. We started identifying this long-term debt as `non-linear learning gaps'. As other folks have called out, large chunk of students in higher grades or higher ed need to understand the most basic of stuff referring back to multiple years of grades in their past. The good part is you can do that in a human conversation, go back or ahead of your current grade-level seamlessly in a conversation as your mind creates a mental-model of what you are learning. The 'going-ahead' part is specially important as it build perspective into 'why' of learning a concept.

In short, we believe the long-term debt is fixable.

Re: Show HN: I made a cheap alternative to college-level math & physics tutoring

#174

Post by palash777 » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 8:11 AM UTC

newtone wrote: post #125

> it’s very hard to catch-up: once you fall behind, you have no way to review past material efficiently enough to compensate the difference - like credit card debt It is surprising how many people working in education do not understand this. We have clear understanding on technical debt or cycles of poverty but absolutely no understanding of how learning debt evolves among students. It is so evident that couple of mo…

Wow, reading this article really struck a chord with me. As someone who has experienced the overwhelming feeling of falling behind in school and struggling to catch up, I understand the importance of addressing the learning debt you are talking about. It's disheartening to see how little attention it receives in educational circles. Most of the times, we tag the kids with this debt as stupid and move on.

Re: Show HN: I made a cheap alternative to college-level math & physics tutoring

#175

Post by newtone » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 8:13 AM UTC

Xakari wrote: post #172

newtone wrote: post #125

> it’s very hard to catch-up: once you fall behind, you have no way to review past material efficiently enough to compensate the difference - like credit card debt It is surprising how many people working in education do not understand this. We have clear understanding on technical debt or cycles of poverty but absolutely no understanding of how learning debt evolves among students. It is so evident that couple of mo…

Absolutely, there is no meaningful discourse and action aimed at leveling the playing field for students who have accumulated learning debt over the years. At your org, These are all human tutors on the other end!? or AI ones? I'm still hesitant about the effectiveness of AI-driven tutoring.

We use human tutors only. Besides the academic accuracy and hallucination, I think the biggest issue is lack of proper 'uptake' currently with AI models, to continue the conversation.

The problem is, 'majority of the students do not know what to ask and how to ask a question'.

Our tutoring is AI-driven in the sense that the entire engine from matching to pedagogy-detection in a session relies on some AI model.

Re: Show HN: I made a cheap alternative to college-level math & physics tutoring

#176

Post by thinkingemote » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 8:21 AM UTC

newtone wrote: post #175

Xakari wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, there is no meaningful discourse and action aimed at leveling the playing field for students who have accumulated learning debt over the years. At your org, These are all human tutors on the other end!? or AI ones? I'm still hesitant about the effectiveness of AI-driven tutoring.

We use human tutors only. Besides the academic accuracy and hallucination, I think the biggest issue is lack of proper 'uptake' currently with AI models, to continue the conversation. The problem is, 'majority of the students do not know what to ask and how to ask a question'. Our tutoring is AI-driven in the sense that the entire engine from matching to pedagogy-detection in a session relies on some AI model.

We should teach people how to learn to learn. Learning to learn.

How to ask questions. This leads to how to form search queries and now how to write prompts.

Re: Show HN: I made a cheap alternative to college-level math & physics tutoring

#177

Post by ragecoding » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 8:59 AM UTC

newtone wrote: post #125

> it’s very hard to catch-up: once you fall behind, you have no way to review past material efficiently enough to compensate the difference - like credit card debt It is surprising how many people working in education do not understand this. We have clear understanding on technical debt or cycles of poverty but absolutely no understanding of how learning debt evolves among students. It is so evident that couple of mo…

Your observations on learning debt resonate strongly with many educators. It's concerning how patterns of performance tend to persist throughout the academic year, indicating deeper underlying issues. Filo seems like a valuable resource in breaking this cycle by providing personalized support to students. Keep up the good work in addressing this critical aspect of education. I will try to use Filo myself.

Re: Show HN: I made a cheap alternative to college-level math & physics tutoring

#178

Post by godelski » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 9:04 AM UTC

eltonlin wrote: post #163

godelski wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had the exact opposite problem when I was both a TA and later a professor. I would beg and plead for my students to come to office hours. ... And then I'd get feedback at the end of the semester that I "was never available to help." My first year of grad school I had this problem and it made me immediately become disillusioned because the reality was so starkly different from what students wrote. I worked in my o…

Hey sorry to hear your experience. First to clarify - it varies - the classes (usually required CS classes), usually had overcrowded Office Hours, but there were many classes in math & physics where OH was very available (and I did very well in as a direct consequence, though I was a CS major). If students complain about availability, but never show up despite everything you did, then that's their problem. What peopl…

> realized, man teachers also have their fair share of indignations from the system.

Oh for sure. I think many would be surprised how political (not in like government terms) a department can be. It can vary dramatically within a school too. My partner's department is very functional while mine seems to be continually shooting themselves in the foot trying to dislodge the previous bullet hole. But when I started, it was very functional. I can certainly say that very few professors are happy with the system and I think it is failing everyone involved. This is why in my main comment I suggested that there is real opportunities to disrupt education in a very traditional sense. Because the truth of the matter is that we started treating academia like a business and the results were probably what anyone could have predicted: metric hacking galore. It's a big part of why students themselves cheat in the first place. Then try being a grad student where you are doing half of your advisor's job, leading other students and writing grants, while trying to also do course work (first few years), TA, publish, and research. It's a lot. Everyone is overworked.

There are plenty of great advisors and departments. But unfortunately these tend to be the exception instead of the norm and appear to becoming rarer. Or maybe I've just gotten more experience. Personally, my PhD has left me with a very bad taste for academia, and I know a lot of others at other schools who have the same feelings. What's also surprising to many outside of academia is that my dream is to spend my days researching. But they cannot understand how academia nor industry provides me a environment to actually do this (fwiw, academics usually to understand).

Re: Show HN: I made a cheap alternative to college-level math & physics tutoring

#179

Post by eltonlin » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 10:07 AM UTC

fn-mote wrote: post #54

The blog post listed on the site is wonderful. https://eltonlin.substack.com/p/a-story-about-802-teal I feel like it barely connects to the rest of the story, though. The founder basically says small group work interspersed through the learning process was a major factor in their success. I believe it. The professor says the TEAL system worked because it forced students to regularly invest time in the class, so they…

You're right, the blog talks about one thing, the product does another thing.

The reason I conducted those interviews was that I wanted to understand the good intentions behind instructors who I disagreed with, especially instructors who put an extraordinary effort to change things(even when it was unpopular). That's how I started to understand the strongest arguments for mandatory attendance, and a synchronous learning experience. That's also how I learnt first-hand that the key incentives problem "what's the reward for teaching well at a research university?"

Having said that, through talking to other students, especailly the busy ones, who live off campus, have a part-time job, and via my experience, I understand first-hand the need of efficient options that don't require commuting and waiting. explanations.app is async. and remote for that reason. There are lots of existing async remote options, but they are textbased. I hope providing a visual async remote option, means that it can attract students who genuinely wants to learn things properly but also efficiently.

Re: Show HN: I made a cheap alternative to college-level math & physics tutoring

#180

Post by eltonlin » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 10:14 AM UTC

gnobbler wrote: post #33

Are you trying to create a tutoring version of fiverr/upwork? If so, the economics doesn't seem to work. I think you are saying that you'll create a product, charge $10/wk to customers and, through volume, give the tutor approx. $100/hr. Fair enough, but I think you're overestimating how well tutoring scales - which is not well at all. If I'm a tutor, and I want to break even with my in-person rate, I need to satisfy…

Maybe you're right, but I'd challenge your middle paragraph.

When there are 10 students, they often have some common misundersetandings that can be addressed together e.g. they all want a review of Taylor's theorem needed to do electromagnetism, and they forgot it from high school. So I argue there is a lot of room for reusability of explanations.

>"pay $10 to watch another guy get tutoring" The format async., so if person A asks a question, person B doesn't have to sit and watch. The same way it works on Stackoverflow - if someone asks a useful question that you wanted to ask, you can reap the rewards of the existing answer.