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For young people, the job search has never been so miserable

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Re: For young people, the job search has never been so miserable

#11

Post by busterarm »

anonzzzies wrote: post #6

‘Never’ is a long time. There were far worse times in (recent) history, but currently I see many companies rather hiring no one than a graduate/junior. At least in my field (which is common here; saas dev, fullstack), I have too pick between paying a graduate a very large amount of $, much to close to a medior or even senior, to skip over them. I would love to hire someone like me when I was a graduate: I didn’t have…

On the other hand, senior pay expectations are wildly out of orbit because of some exuberant behavior from the FAANGs during COVID.

It's been extra annoying because they say the compensation range is fine before the interviews and suddenly their pay expectations are 20%-50% higher than the high end of the range after interviews even when they have no other offers and even if they didn't wow us in the interview.

Re: For young people, the job search has never been so miserable

#12

Post by inductive_magic »

Tutitk wrote: post #3

> pages and pages of jobs, most requiring at least three, even five, years of experience. > recent graduate with a degree in cyber security College is the problem! It should provide job relevant skills and education! Instead students are forced to study irrelevant garbage. If this guy studied himself, he would save money, and had a few years of relevant experience by now.

As someone who “made it” without a formal degree: oh come on. If nobody opens doors for you, it takes a lot more than just intellect and grit to establish yourself. While I don’t have many good things to say about the established education systems, it’s beyond naive to act like “just do it on your own” is a scalable approach. Even today, some doors will stay closed for me, simply because I will always have to justify why I have no formal degree (and the doorkeepers are not incentivized to even listen since the pool of candidates is big), and some of those doors are highly interesting.

Re: For young people, the job search has never been so miserable

#13

Post by Tknl »

anonzzzies wrote: post #6

‘Never’ is a long time. There were far worse times in (recent) history, but currently I see many companies rather hiring no one than a graduate/junior. At least in my field (which is common here; saas dev, fullstack), I have too pick between paying a graduate a very large amount of $, much to close to a medior or even senior, to skip over them. I would love to hire someone like me when I was a graduate: I didn’t have…

As a hiring manager I can understand this view. I'm also in SaaS dev. But in the Netherlands at least most of the raising IT salary demands aligned with inflation, particularly if one includes housing market inflation. People are not going to accept a salary which still won't get them towards homeownrship with dual incomes if they can avoid it.

Re: For young people, the job search has never been so miserable

#14

Post by jimbob45 »

Employers may imagine the system is efficient. In fact, it is a wasted opportunity. Every time someone applies for a job, there is a chance to build that company’s reputation.

Couldn’t agree with this more. I’ve heard some stories about companies rejecting candidates too late in the process to be professional. It’s like they don’t think we talk about them.

Re: For young people, the job search has never been so miserable

#15

Post by anonzzzies »

busterarm wrote: post #11
anonzzzies wrote: post #6

‘Never’ is a long time. There were far worse times in (recent) history, but currently I see many companies rather hiring no one than a graduate/junior. At least in my field (which is common here; saas dev, fullstack), I have too pick between paying a graduate a very large amount of $, much to close to a medior or even senior, to skip over them. I would love to hire someone like me when I was a graduate: I didn’t have…

On the other hand, senior pay expectations are wildly out of orbit because of some exuberant behavior from the FAANGs during COVID. It's been extra annoying because they say the compensation range is fine before the interviews and suddenly their pay expectations are 20%-50% higher than the high end of the range after interviews even when they have no other offers and even if they didn't wow us in the interview.

I guess that depends a little more on location than the junior situation; here (EU), the seniors applying are much more stable salary wise. Much less golden mountains; they just want a job and stability, not dreams and chaos. Most I speak to over 40 want jobs for life, not hop. Raised by inflation yearly and that for the coming 27 or so years until retirement.

Re: For young people, the job search has never been so miserable

#16

Post by blackbear_ »

Tutitk wrote: post #3

> pages and pages of jobs, most requiring at least three, even five, years of experience. > recent graduate with a degree in cyber security College is the problem! It should provide job relevant skills and education! Instead students are forced to study irrelevant garbage. If this guy studied himself, he would save money, and had a few years of relevant experience by now.

Yes, and companies should pay for it rather than students! Let the market decide what is "job relevant"!!

In all seriousness, maybe an institution like this would not be a bad idea, alongside universities rather than as a replacement.

Re: For young people, the job search has never been so miserable

#17

Post by yurishimo »

Tknl wrote: post #13
anonzzzies wrote: post #6

‘Never’ is a long time. There were far worse times in (recent) history, but currently I see many companies rather hiring no one than a graduate/junior. At least in my field (which is common here; saas dev, fullstack), I have too pick between paying a graduate a very large amount of $, much to close to a medior or even senior, to skip over them. I would love to hire someone like me when I was a graduate: I didn’t have…

As a hiring manager I can understand this view. I'm also in SaaS dev. But in the Netherlands at least most of the raising IT salary demands aligned with inflation, particularly if one includes housing market inflation. People are not going to accept a salary which still won't get them towards homeownrship with dual incomes if they can avoid it.

Can I ask roughly where you are in NL? I'm an immigrant from the US and still trying to get a hold on prices here in regards to salary. My wife and I together make around 7500 gross in the Eindhoven area. Still enough to get ahead if we are conscious of our expenses, but not lavish by any stretch. The country seems to be shifting some and that's always a bit nerve racking when you're one step lower on the social ladder than everyone else.

Are salaries really that much higher in the Holland compared to Brabant? I have ten years of experience as a fullstack dev.

Re: For young people, the job search has never been so miserable

#18

Post by busterarm »

anonzzzies wrote: post #15
busterarm wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, senior pay expectations are wildly out of orbit because of some exuberant behavior from the FAANGs during COVID. It's been extra annoying because they say the compensation range is fine before the interviews and suddenly their pay expectations are 20%-50% higher than the high end of the range after interviews even when they have no other offers and even if they didn't wow us in the interview.

I guess that depends a little more on location than the junior situation; here (EU), the seniors applying are much more stable salary wise. Much less golden mountains; they just want a job and stability, not dreams and chaos. Most I speak to over 40 want jobs for life, not hop. Raised by inflation yearly and that for the coming 27 or so years until retirement.

Oh for sure it's definitely in the States where everyone has a big head.

Re: For young people, the job search has never been so miserable

#19

Post by debtless4080 »

anonzzzies wrote: post #6

‘Never’ is a long time. There were far worse times in (recent) history, but currently I see many companies rather hiring no one than a graduate/junior. At least in my field (which is common here; saas dev, fullstack), I have too pick between paying a graduate a very large amount of $, much to close to a medior or even senior, to skip over them. I would love to hire someone like me when I was a graduate: I didn’t have…

My situation speaks to the exact opposite. I'm currently studying computer science at grad level because I can't find even an UNPAID gig. It is honestly a soul destroying experience.

Re: For young people, the job search has never been so miserable

#20

Post by busterarm »

inductive_magic wrote: post #12
Tutitk wrote: post #3

> pages and pages of jobs, most requiring at least three, even five, years of experience. > recent graduate with a degree in cyber security College is the problem! It should provide job relevant skills and education! Instead students are forced to study irrelevant garbage. If this guy studied himself, he would save money, and had a few years of relevant experience by now.

As someone who “made it” without a formal degree: oh come on. If nobody opens doors for you, it takes a lot more than just intellect and grit to establish yourself. While I don’t have many good things to say about the established education systems, it’s beyond naive to act like “just do it on your own” is a scalable approach. Even today, some doors will stay closed for me, simply because I will always have to justify…

I'm in a similar experience as you, but as my career grows longer into the decades I realize that it takes just as much mental fortitude to stay working in this field as it did for us to break into it from the unusual path.

The half life of software engineers is quite short. Even some of the brightest minds I met who went to some of the best schools ended up just being tourists in this industry -- flushed out and disillusioned after only a few years.

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