The window for great-grandmothers is closing • Hacker News Board

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#211

Post by bradlys » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 12:14 AM UTC

r00fus wrote: post #186

Afton wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The upside is that I was a total basket case in my 20s, completely incompetent to be able to raise a child. I'll leave it to my children on how it turned out in my 30s. Generally I'd expect older adults to have done a lot more maturing and increased ability to emotionally regulate, which is a really critical ability when dealing with the 4th day of 3 hours of sleep and a colicky baby (for example). Also no point. But…

> The upside is that I was a total basket case in my 20s, completely incompetent to be able to raise a child. You see, in a proper early childrearing situation, you would be a) near your parents and inlaws ideally b) they would share in the burden of child-rearing. We had kids later in life (33-ish) and I think if I were to do it again, I'd have moved quicker to having kids earlier (waited 2 years to marry and 3 year…

A lot of this assumes so many things that I think people who were born and raised in stable UMC (like most on HN) take for granted.

Even if I lived close to the family I was born into, I would never let them get near my children. The years of neglect and child abuse are reason enough that they should never see them - let alone be caregivers.

Similarly, you’re assuming that your marriage would have gone smoothly still and so would the childbearing if you hadn’t waited. I was with someone for five years and we never got legally married. We talked a lot about kids and marriage. I still felt like we had years to go before we were ready for marriage and kids. We separated over financial differences once it became clear they were never going to resolve. Imagine we had ignored our intuitions and married and had kids based on arbitrary deadlines? It would have been terrible. The differences wouldn’t have solved themselves with marriage or kids - we would’ve gone separate ways and both would experience truly insane hardship due to such poor decisions.

Living near people who can take care of your kids sounds lovely if you grew up where all the jobs are. Not uncommon for many SV types here who grew up in Palo Alto and such but it’s farfetched for so many more.

We need better regulations to give better paid leave and lower the cost of housing so I’m not homeless when my spouse decides to stop working to take care of the kids.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#212

Post by harel » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 12:20 AM UTC

We just said goodbye to my kid's great grandmother. They knew her very well and treated her like a their regular grandma. When my eldest son was just under 1 year old he met his great-great grandmother (who died shortly after meeting him at 105). I think me and my wife's parents will live to see their great grand children. It's not too far fetched to imagine.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#213

Post by kristopolous » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 12:25 AM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #97

modeless wrote: post #29

> this source for example claims global life expectancy jumped from around 47 to 72 from 1950 to 2022 I believe this is because of reductions in child mortality more than increases in adult lifespan. So it doesn't affect the number of great grandmothers that much. Having kids older is definitely a big change for society and individual families, though. Every day as a parent I wish I was 15 years younger and my parent…

Yeah, the thing that kinda annoyed me about the article is that it even acknowledges this fact ("even though life expectancy at birth as I’ve used here isn’t the best proxy for this"), but then for some reason refuses to make the next rational leap that there were plenty of great grandmothers in previous generations, totally invalidating the article's main thesis. Obviously there have been huge changes in family size…

Personally when people make mistakes like that I stop reading.

Not even the next word. I'm gone.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#214

Post by serf » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 12:25 AM UTC

crimsontech wrote: post #209

Afton wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The upside is that I was a total basket case in my 20s, completely incompetent to be able to raise a child. I'll leave it to my children on how it turned out in my 30s. Generally I'd expect older adults to have done a lot more maturing and increased ability to emotionally regulate, which is a really critical ability when dealing with the 4th day of 3 hours of sleep and a colicky baby (for example). Also no point. But…

I had my first daughter when I was 20 and grew up very quickly, I can distinctly remember it hitting me like a bus that I was now wholly responsible for a human. She is an adult now and I couldn’t be any prouder of all she has achieved in life so far. I also had two more kids in my 30s. It’s harder when you are older, but I’m financially better off so they can have things I couldn’t afford in my 20s. I do have more w…

>I can distinctly remember it hitting me like a bus that I was now wholly responsible for a human.

the problem of course being that some individuals never hit upon that realization -- and the statistics regarding the matter make it look like that revelation is more likely to come to an individual who is older, financially secure, and mentally well.

> It’s harder when you are older, but I’m financially better off so they can have things I couldn’t afford in my 20s.

I'm a second child with after a large age-gap. My brother was born when my mother was 16, I was born twenty years later. My parents routinely told me how much harder it was with my brother -- lack of cash and profession, the party lifestyle that comes with youth and college-life, constant moving for opportunity and cheaper housing, and an overall lack of time to dedicate to the kid due to the instability and struggle to keep afloat financially.

I was born at a time of great stability for them. They had professions, they could make their own schedules. They had time to participate in my schooling and extracurricular stuff. I had good food, good toys, good clothing, and a stable house. They let me voice my decisions because they had the time and freedom to consider options other than pure survival. I was told that I was the 'easy' one -- not because of my personality but because "The 70s sucked.", which is code for "We were young, poor, un-established and struggling."

So, after the anecdote I feel compelled to ask : Why do you think it is harder when you're older? You have more money, you have the power of flexibility within your scheduling that allows for participation in your childrens' growth and development -- is it simply a 'strength of youth' kind of thing?

I have no kids, I have no plans for them, so I ask just as a curiosity. The opinion varies wildly from person to person, and I think it's fascinating what kind of 'diversity of parenting' exists.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#215

Post by bgroat » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 12:25 AM UTC

Afton wrote: post #90

CalRobert wrote: post #8

If you haven't read the article, it's about how people having kids later means you won't meet your great grandparents. My mom had me when she was 23, and her mom had her at 22. I'm in my forties and still have two living grandparents, and am very grateful for them. I remember a lot of days where my grandmother watched me and my sister, and she was able to do that because she was only in her late 40's herself and plen…

The upside is that I was a total basket case in my 20s, completely incompetent to be able to raise a child. I'll leave it to my children on how it turned out in my 30s. Generally I'd expect older adults to have done a lot more maturing and increased ability to emotionally regulate, which is a really critical ability when dealing with the 4th day of 3 hours of sleep and a colicky baby (for example). Also no point. But…

Everyone's life is completely different, and their choices are their own. It seems you made the right choice for yourself, and I hope your kids agree.

I will say though, I think there's a chicken and egg element in this line of thinking.

A part of my thinks that being childless in twenties provides space that facilitates being a basket-case.

I think that having a child immediately makes most people at least 50% more responsible, and 85%+ within a year.

Again, there's a huge range here for people who: - Never get better - Their 85%+ still isn't really responsible enough.

Unsolicited 2 cents from a guy who had a kid in his twenties

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#216

Post by jethro_tell » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 12:31 AM UTC

rodgerd wrote: post #150

em-bee wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the component that is getting lost in our culture, which in other cultures is still more present is that grandparents play an active role in helping the young parents to raise their children. in chinese culture for example the young couple moves in with the husbands parents, and so grandparents are always around to give advice and help. when our first was born we moved to live a few km from the grandparents, and ther…

> the component that is getting lost in our culture, which in other cultures is still more present is that grandparents play an active role in helping the young parents to raise their children. in chinese culture for example the young couple moves in with the husbands parents, and so grandparents are always around to give advice and help. That's great if the grandparents are good people. Not so much if they aren't.

Additionally, in generational cycles where you can maintain or exceed your parent's class status without moving away.

Whole swaths of the US don't have enough good jobs to maintain a middle class lifestyle for kids of middle class parents.

And parents are working longer as well, meaning that overlap is less likely to happen.

I went to my grandparents every Wednesday. My mom just retired, my kids are 12 and I didn't have kids until my 30s.

There's so much about life that has changed the fabric of families in the last few decades

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#217

Post by Rury » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 12:33 AM UTC

xico wrote: post #37

CalRobert wrote: post #8

If you haven't read the article, it's about how people having kids later means you won't meet your great grandparents. My mom had me when she was 23, and her mom had her at 22. I'm in my forties and still have two living grandparents, and am very grateful for them. I remember a lot of days where my grandmother watched me and my sister, and she was able to do that because she was only in her late 40's herself and plen…

One of the (maybe more) obvious downside being the increase in mutations this brings, in the order of 1 full generation of mutations for every decade the fathers are older for instance. There are plenty of studies on these issues, notably paternal age genetic disorders and "selfish genes", as well as increase of autism, schizophrenia, mendelian disorders, .... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001502…

Increased mutations/mutation rate is not necessarily a downside. Mutations aren't inherently bad, they can be beneficial, and the vast majority actually have no effect whatsoever, as the majority of our DNA is never used. But yes increased mutations means increased chances of bad mutations happening even if it also means increased chances of good mutations happening. Anyhow, it may put evolutionary pressure for longer lifespans. Studies involving fruit flies, and selective breeding them as old as possible for successive generations, show that can be the case. And other studies involving natural selection show that high mutation rates are a good thing (ie they help species survive), when environmental change is high (but high mutation rates are detrimental if the environment remains stable).

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#218

Post by OkayPhysicist » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 12:38 AM UTC

zachmu wrote: post #163

crote wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just a matter of giving your kid a new laptop every year vs. every couple of years, or not being able to pay for college out-of-pocket. There are plenty of people out there who can't afford to live in anything larger than a one-bedroom apartment, who can't afford to clothe their children, or who can't even afford to feed them. Telling them to have kids because they are "resilient" and parenthood is "meaningf…

To accept this view is to accept the idea that most of our ancestors had "childhood poverty trauma". I just don't see how it's a useful frame. And really, it's not the actual poor who are delaying having kids into their mid-30s: it's the college educated who make way, way more money than them!

You're missing the fact that class mobility has changed wildly over time. Delaying having kids is class mobility play, trying to give your a leg up socioeconomically based on your own heightened socioeconomic status. This was a VERY effective move during the 20th century, because the economy was in the biggest growth spurt in history.

In contrast, you go back 150 years, and class mobility was for the cut-throated, extremely ambitious entrepreneurs. The idea of "get a better paying job working for someone else and fundamentally change my social standing" was laughable. Go back any much further than that, and socioeconomic class was basically immutable.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#219

Post by Spooky23 » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 12:44 AM UTC

serf wrote: post #214

crimsontech wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had my first daughter when I was 20 and grew up very quickly, I can distinctly remember it hitting me like a bus that I was now wholly responsible for a human. She is an adult now and I couldn’t be any prouder of all she has achieved in life so far. I also had two more kids in my 30s. It’s harder when you are older, but I’m financially better off so they can have things I couldn’t afford in my 20s. I do have more w…

>I can distinctly remember it hitting me like a bus that I was now wholly responsible for a human. the problem of course being that some individuals never hit upon that realization -- and the statistics regarding the matter make it look like that revelation is more likely to come to an individual who is older, financially secure, and mentally well. > It’s harder when you are older, but I’m financially better off so t…

For one, grandkids. If I live as long as my dad, I’ll have 7 fewer years than he did with me and my wife and son.

My family brings me great joy.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#220

Post by sublinear » Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 12:45 AM UTC

rfrey wrote: post #204

sublinear wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the ultimate goal of parenting that your kids shouldn't have to trust anyone but themselves? Parents who don't have a plan and need help shouldn't have had kids. The grandparents and great grandparents would just get in the way of these goals. There shouldn't be anything magical about getting to know your family. If you got to meet them, great, but you're your own person and developing that is so much more impo…

This reads like a parody of American individualism that a Chinese government newspaper might write. The ultimate goal of my parenting is for my kids to realize they're part of a community that gave them tremendous advantages, and to which they have a duty to give back.

Not sure what bubble you're describing, but the sense of community anywhere at any time in human history is ultimately an illusion.

I'm not saying the kids should grow up to be selfish, but that the more they can do for themselves the more they can also do for others. That is a leader. We really don't need another generation of guilt ridden cogs.