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The window for great-grandmothers is closing

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Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#181

Post by paulryanrogers »

aidenn0 wrote: post #158
rodgerd wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the component that is getting lost in our culture, which in other cultures is still more present is that grandparents play an active role in helping the young parents to raise their children. in chinese culture for example the young couple moves in with the husbands parents, and so grandparents are always around to give advice and help. That's great if the grandparents are good people. Not so much if they aren't.

This retort is true of literally everything involved in raising kids. Substitute "parents" "preschool teachers" "sports coach" &c. for "grandparents" in the sentence and it's still true for the domain for the children. It's true that with grandparents you have a maximum of 4 to choose from, but you might not have more than 4 preschools to choose from either.

Arguably you can chose other teachers and coaches and daycare

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#182

Post by robertlagrant »

rodgerd wrote: post #150
em-bee wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the component that is getting lost in our culture, which in other cultures is still more present is that grandparents play an active role in helping the young parents to raise their children. in chinese culture for example the young couple moves in with the husbands parents, and so grandparents are always around to give advice and help. when our first was born we moved to live a few km from the grandparents, and ther…

> the component that is getting lost in our culture, which in other cultures is still more present is that grandparents play an active role in helping the young parents to raise their children. in chinese culture for example the young couple moves in with the husbands parents, and so grandparents are always around to give advice and help. That's great if the grandparents are good people. Not so much if they aren't.

> That's great if the grandparents are good people. Not so much if they aren't.

This is specious. If they are particularly awful, their kid probably won't want anything to do with them raising his/her kids.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#183

Post by mkoubaa »

CalRobert wrote: post #8

If you haven't read the article, it's about how people having kids later means you won't meet your great grandparents. My mom had me when she was 23, and her mom had her at 22. I'm in my forties and still have two living grandparents, and am very grateful for them. I remember a lot of days where my grandmother watched me and my sister, and she was able to do that because she was only in her late 40's herself and plen…

My parents had me in their early 20s and I only met one of my grandparents. We had our kid in our late 20s and my parents aren't healthy enough to help at all. Take it from someone who never had the opportunity. If you have healthy parents do yourself and them a favor and if you're gonna have kids have them sooner.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#184

Post by bluGill »

Xenoamorphous wrote: post #176
munificent wrote: post #115

If you ever sit down and really think about it, it is absolutely wild how profoundly the invention of the birth control pill has changed the course of human history, our cultures, and human society. It's gotta be up there with, like, writing and fire, in terms of shaping the destiny of our species.

Why that and not other contraceptives?

Because it is used. Others are easy to forget or use wrong. Many are enough worse from a pleasure standpoint that I rather obstain then use them. (of course I'm married so I have an easy outlet without worrying about stds)

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#185

Post by selimthegrim »

082349872349872 wrote: post #94
titzer wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My family has really long generations. Going back 7 generations for me patrilinearly is exactly 280 years; 40 years per generation. When I was young my grandparents were already in their 80s and both grandfathers gone before I was 14. Sadly, both had mental decline (stroke, Alzheimers) and I never knew them in their right mind. They'd be in their 110s today. The idea of knowing my great-grandparents, who would be in…

In the line I've been able (most just showed up in the New World from somewhere or other...) to trace back to 7 generations, it was a little less, but they were in the colonies before the US was a thing, so more than 35, less than 40 years per generation? My wife can go back 7 as well, and her family has also tended towards high parental investment in offspring; next time I'm in the cellar I'll have to check but I'd…

I am shocked, shocked that Josephine Mutzenbacher didn’t reflect reality

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#186

Post by r00fus »

Afton wrote: post #90
CalRobert wrote: post #8

If you haven't read the article, it's about how people having kids later means you won't meet your great grandparents. My mom had me when she was 23, and her mom had her at 22. I'm in my forties and still have two living grandparents, and am very grateful for them. I remember a lot of days where my grandmother watched me and my sister, and she was able to do that because she was only in her late 40's herself and plen…

The upside is that I was a total basket case in my 20s, completely incompetent to be able to raise a child. I'll leave it to my children on how it turned out in my 30s. Generally I'd expect older adults to have done a lot more maturing and increased ability to emotionally regulate, which is a really critical ability when dealing with the 4th day of 3 hours of sleep and a colicky baby (for example). Also no point. But…

> The upside is that I was a total basket case in my 20s, completely incompetent to be able to raise a child.

You see, in a proper early childrearing situation, you would be a) near your parents and inlaws ideally b) they would share in the burden of child-rearing.

We had kids later in life (33-ish) and I think if I were to do it again, I'd have moved quicker to having kids earlier (waited 2 years to marry and 3 years before having first kid).

More and more people are living closer to their parents - which opens up this possibility.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#187

Post by em-bee »

rodgerd wrote: post #150
em-bee wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the component that is getting lost in our culture, which in other cultures is still more present is that grandparents play an active role in helping the young parents to raise their children. in chinese culture for example the young couple moves in with the husbands parents, and so grandparents are always around to give advice and help. when our first was born we moved to live a few km from the grandparents, and ther…

> the component that is getting lost in our culture, which in other cultures is still more present is that grandparents play an active role in helping the young parents to raise their children. in chinese culture for example the young couple moves in with the husbands parents, and so grandparents are always around to give advice and help. That's great if the grandparents are good people. Not so much if they aren't.

you can't choose your parents obviously, but having parents so bad that you don't want them in your life is not the norm. you have my sympathies if that is your experience.

for most people the problem is not that they don't want their parents around, but that the parents don't feel like helping as much as their kids would need it. and here the culture makes a difference.

my wife was not her mothers favorite. girls in china were always treated as secondary. and according to their tradition we should have been living with my parents. they favored their son and his wife in everything, and yet they did what they could to help their daughter, because that is simply what what grandparents in china do regardless of how well they relate to each other.

but in our culture it's not, and whether grandparents are willing to help varies a lot, and it depends on the relationship to their kids

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#188

Post by DoughnutHole »

zachmu wrote: post #163
crote wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just a matter of giving your kid a new laptop every year vs. every couple of years, or not being able to pay for college out-of-pocket. There are plenty of people out there who can't afford to live in anything larger than a one-bedroom apartment, who can't afford to clothe their children, or who can't even afford to feed them. Telling them to have kids because they are "resilient" and parenthood is "meaningf…

To accept this view is to accept the idea that most of our ancestors had "childhood poverty trauma". I just don't see how it's a useful frame. And really, it's not the actual poor who are delaying having kids into their mid-30s: it's the college educated who make way, way more money than them!

> To accept this view is to accept the idea that most of our ancestors had "childhood poverty trauma".

I 100% accept this idea. Most of my ancestors lived the miserable, short lives of impoverished alcoholics. They and their children absolutely experienced trauma from their miserable hunger and disease-ridden lives.

If I can’t see myself giving my child a good life I’m more than happy to wait until I’m able to. Bringing a child into the world isn’t an intrinsic moral good.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#189

Post by throwway120385 »

jncfhnb wrote: post #35
CalRobert wrote: post #8

If you haven't read the article, it's about how people having kids later means you won't meet your great grandparents. My mom had me when she was 23, and her mom had her at 22. I'm in my forties and still have two living grandparents, and am very grateful for them. I remember a lot of days where my grandmother watched me and my sister, and she was able to do that because she was only in her late 40's herself and plen…

The economic situation of your mom having a great career is not the same as the economic situation of today; appeal to her hard work considered. People cannot afford to have kids like they used to. And yes, the older grandparents make this much worse because they’re now a costly liability rather than a useful child watcher. I find the idea that people haven’t considered downsides of waiting to have kids to be grating…

> I find the idea that people haven’t considered downsides of waiting to have kids to be grating personally

Why do you care about what other people do? It's not harming you.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#190

Post by iteratethis »

deadbabe wrote: post #157

We need more good examples of what “old parents” look like in modern society. Having a first child in your 40s is often painted as a pessimistic, undesirable situation to be in, where you will “lack energy” and patience to take care of a small child. But why? If we’re serious about extending lifespans the average age of parents should be going up. People should be using their younger years to establish themselves in…

Extending lifespan misses the point and is reasoned from the individual, and not the child. Lifespan extension adds to your maximum age but maximum age isn't the most pressing issue to begin with.

When you're born and you have parents that are 20 versus 40, that is a dramatically different situation. Likewise if you have grandparents that are 50-60 versus 70 or already dead. Sure, more lifespan means you'll have more years together but you're completely dismissing the quality of those years.

I feel the same way about relationships. Some people willingly only seriously settle in their mid 30s or even later. That means you did not share the other person's most energetic, adventurous, and exciting life phase. You're 40 and have zero shared history together, no stories, nothing. But hey, you're finally "comfortable".

Fuck comfortable. The clock is ticking, hurry the hell up. You're wasting the defining and most valuable years of your life.

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