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Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

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Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#41

Post by Zandikar »

I used to want to be an astrophysicist or something similar in pursuit of understanding high energy/quantum/cosmic phenomenon and generally trying to do my small part in furthering our understanding of spacetime and the universe. However, The horror stories of getting a PhD and general complaints regarding the nature of academic research are a significant part of what lead me to change course and take an early exit from academia, and generally dissuaded me from that pursuit. The PhD's (Students and graduates) I talked to were all saying the same thing about terrible pay, terrible treatment, terrible grueling grinding hours, begging for funding that could fall through and sink your project no matter your merits or efforts or attempts to prevent it, the publish or perish culture, etc etc etc

At first I thought they were just jaded or cynical and I was just talking to the wrong people, or perhaps the local uni was just atypically bad in someway, but as I branched out and asked more people from more institutions I kept hearing the same thing pretty much universally. I heard it then (over a decade ago) and I hear it still now.

I'm sure there are exceptions, but of the many I've talked to, few feel it was worth it, and every single one agree it was a grueling grind regardless. And I fully understand that few things worth doing come easy, and that discipline and persistence can be valuable "rewards" in their own right (started my own business, more than once), but on the same token, that doesn't mean things need be so difficult or detrimental, nor does it mean that the process can't be improved or modified in some way so that it doesn't so mercilessly beat people down.

Guess that's a long winded way of me saying: yeah, no shit. It can and should be better, and am not the least bit surprised it's on the decline. How bad does it have to get before there's a serious, genuine effort to fix it? Additionally, if there is such an effort underway, what is it and how can I contribute?

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#42

Post by BobaFloutist »

alephnerd wrote: post #19
COGlory wrote: post #15

I made $16,800 a year while getting my PhD. Sometimes that required me to teach, when we had funding, it was just research. Grueling hours, abusive PI, for 6 years of my life. I helped bring in over 4 million dollars in grants to my university. After about two years, I was highly skilled and founded a new core facility that I kept running for the next 4 years while finishing my PhD. When I graduated, I had someone of…

> We don't need H1Bs. We need better PhD student and postdoc wages. You need both. Your PhD classmates from abroad (most likely Russia, China, Korea, and India) would have gotten an H1B after they graduated from the PhD program, and their (edit: post-) postdoc employment would have been on an H1B. I'm assuming this was the late 1990s or early 2000s based on the numbers provided One of my friends who did their PhD and…

Or maybe people who have dedicated half a decade to getting an education and/or working in the US in highly skilled, advanced knowledge positions should have a path to residency so they're not the mercy at their employer for the rest of their life. Just a thought.

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#43

Post by forgotmyinfo »

zer00eyz wrote: post #21
COGlory wrote: post #15

I made $16,800 a year while getting my PhD. Sometimes that required me to teach, when we had funding, it was just research. Grueling hours, abusive PI, for 6 years of my life. I helped bring in over 4 million dollars in grants to my university. After about two years, I was highly skilled and founded a new core facility that I kept running for the next 4 years while finishing my PhD. When I graduated, I had someone of…

And with a BS in CS or Math what would you have made going to work for a FAANG? How do universities have all these endowments and not pay more? >> $16,800 This is like 5 weeks of work at minimum wage... You would have been better off with a side hustle at macdonalds. >> We need better PhD student and postdoc wages. Living wages would be a start, then better. EDIT: I fat fingered the 2... that was supposed to be 25...…

Not everybody can work at the same washed-up Silicon Valley panopticon providers, you know. Some people need to be, like, accountants and stuff.

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#44

Post by COGlory »

alephnerd wrote: post #19
COGlory wrote: post #15

I made $16,800 a year while getting my PhD. Sometimes that required me to teach, when we had funding, it was just research. Grueling hours, abusive PI, for 6 years of my life. I helped bring in over 4 million dollars in grants to my university. After about two years, I was highly skilled and founded a new core facility that I kept running for the next 4 years while finishing my PhD. When I graduated, I had someone of…

> We don't need H1Bs. We need better PhD student and postdoc wages. You need both. Your PhD classmates from abroad (most likely Russia, China, Korea, and India) would have gotten an H1B after they graduated from the PhD program, and their (edit: post-) postdoc employment would have been on an H1B. I'm assuming this was the late 1990s or early 2000s based on the numbers provided One of my friends who did their PhD and…

I stuck my own narrative in here, perhaps I should have been clearer. One thing I see over and over again are people saying that there aren't enough highly educated Americans, hence why we have to import non-Americans. I'm trying to point out why that is - we've made it economic suicide to go into advanced science as an American.

At my university, the vast majority of the incoming PhD class in Chemistry and Biochemistry were American when I joined. When I left, it was closer to 50%, the other 50% being mostly Nigerian and Ghanan (no idea why those two countries specifically). The Americans had just been priced out.

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#45

Post by alephnerd »

BobaFloutist wrote: post #42
alephnerd wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We don't need H1Bs. We need better PhD student and postdoc wages. You need both. Your PhD classmates from abroad (most likely Russia, China, Korea, and India) would have gotten an H1B after they graduated from the PhD program, and their (edit: post-) postdoc employment would have been on an H1B. I'm assuming this was the late 1990s or early 2000s based on the numbers provided One of my friends who did their PhD and…

Or maybe people who have dedicated half a decade to getting an education and/or working in the US in highly skilled, advanced knowledge positions should have a path to residency so they're not the mercy at their employer for the rest of their life. Just a thought.

Agreed, but that kind of reform ain't happening.

It's been stalled since the 2010s.

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#46

Post by COGlory »

zer00eyz wrote: post #21
COGlory wrote: post #15

I made $16,800 a year while getting my PhD. Sometimes that required me to teach, when we had funding, it was just research. Grueling hours, abusive PI, for 6 years of my life. I helped bring in over 4 million dollars in grants to my university. After about two years, I was highly skilled and founded a new core facility that I kept running for the next 4 years while finishing my PhD. When I graduated, I had someone of…

And with a BS in CS or Math what would you have made going to work for a FAANG? How do universities have all these endowments and not pay more? >> $16,800 This is like 5 weeks of work at minimum wage... You would have been better off with a side hustle at macdonalds. >> We need better PhD student and postdoc wages. Living wages would be a start, then better. EDIT: I fat fingered the 2... that was supposed to be 25...…

That's actually just about a year at Federal minimum wage.

In my case, I on-paper only worked 19 hours/week so they didn't have to pay me health insurance.

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#48

Post by COGlory »

cshimmin wrote: post #28
zer00eyz wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And with a BS in CS or Math what would you have made going to work for a FAANG? How do universities have all these endowments and not pay more? >> $16,800 This is like 5 weeks of work at minimum wage... You would have been better off with a side hustle at macdonalds. >> We need better PhD student and postdoc wages. Living wages would be a start, then better. EDIT: I fat fingered the 2... that was supposed to be 25...…

For postdocs (and often grad students), the universities aren't paying the wages, it's the research grants. In some cases, those are capped by the funding agencies. NIH in particular has rigid payscale guidelines for postdocs in the bio sciences, for example. You can find the list here [1]. A first-year postdoc makes $56k, and after seven (!) years they can make $68.5k. Also, a general rule of thumb is that postdocs…

In state tuition where I was rang up at about $3000/semester. It was waived by the school if you were a TA. If you were doing just research, it was paid out of the grant funds. Then I had to pay about $600 out of pocket on student fees per semester.

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#49

Post by gnfedhjmm »

humansareok1 wrote: post #40

Completely unsurprising. Why get a postdoc position with wages near minimum wage, long working hours, high stress all for a small chance at a vanishing number of Tenure Track jobs when Industry pays literally 10x more in some cases with vastly better work life balance and work that is often frankly more impactful and interesting. Someone working as a postdoc sends a significant anti-signal in my opinion.

[dead]

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#50

Post by madsbuch »

It always gives me a bad taste when large institutions problematisize their recruitment efforts. the is equally the case for nurses, teaches and the military.

This is a very conscience decision by the democracy that has funnelled money elsewhere. if nothing else, you can be surprised that these effects have been so slow.

power to the people is, in this case, taking the better deal. work in the industry for double the salary (and still get to publish). People will move back to academia when the deal is on par (eg. more freedom to research the subject you find interesting?)

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