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Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

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Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#31

Post by el_cujo »

robertlagrant wrote: post #11
alephnerd wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Salaries are basically limited to $50-70k a year with 50-60 hour workweeks. If you did a PhD in Biochemistry, you could make $100-200k a year plus stock working 40-50 hours a week at most working for Pfizer in Cambridge MA instead of earning around $60k working 50-60 hours as a Postdoc at a regional Boston based program like BU or Northeastern - you have to pay the same amount for rent and groceries, but you earn hal…

But what's the actual problem that fewer postdocs causes?

There really isn't one in my opinion. Academic postdoc positions in many fields are pitched as a stepping stone to professorship, but professor positions are very few so you end up with PHDs continuing the low-pay grind after graduation to prop up academia for a dream that doesn't come true. I think it's good more are recognizing this and just going to industry, maybe eventually this will cause problems and academia can be motivated to fix itself instead of viewing post docs as disposable. Or maybe there's no problem to fix and this is academia just getting correctly recognized as the grind option for people who are actually ok with that

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#32

Post by alephnerd »

betaby wrote: post #23
alephnerd wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a shortage of them already. The shortage only got worse

Shortage should lead to a better pay and(or) a higher vacancy. However those are not the case.

The wages are set by the US Government (who tend to be the largest grantmakers).

> a higher vacancy

This absolutely IS the case. The US used to fix this through immigration, but Chinese researchers are de facto blacklisted now and Indian researchers are increasingly deciding to return to India instead of waiting 15-20 years for naturalization.

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#33

Post by [deleted] »

zer00eyz wrote: post #21
COGlory wrote: post #15

I made $16,800 a year while getting my PhD. Sometimes that required me to teach, when we had funding, it was just research. Grueling hours, abusive PI, for 6 years of my life. I helped bring in over 4 million dollars in grants to my university. After about two years, I was highly skilled and founded a new core facility that I kept running for the next 4 years while finishing my PhD. When I graduated, I had someone of…

And with a BS in CS or Math what would you have made going to work for a FAANG? How do universities have all these endowments and not pay more? >> $16,800 This is like 5 weeks of work at minimum wage... You would have been better off with a side hustle at macdonalds. >> We need better PhD student and postdoc wages. Living wages would be a start, then better. EDIT: I fat fingered the 2... that was supposed to be 25...…

[deleted]

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#34

Post by alephnerd »

el_cujo wrote: post #31
robertlagrant wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what's the actual problem that fewer postdocs causes?

There really isn't one in my opinion. Academic postdoc positions in many fields are pitched as a stepping stone to professorship, but professor positions are very few so you end up with PHDs continuing the low-pay grind after graduation to prop up academia for a dream that doesn't come true. I think it's good more are recognizing this and just going to industry, maybe eventually this will cause problems and academia…

> academia can be motivated to fix itself

The fundamental issues with postdoc salaries and grantmaking lies with the US Government. It is the grantmakers like the CDC, NIH, CMS, DARPA, etc that essentially set postdoc salaries for grants.

And these agencies are completely averse to change.

Furthermore, us in industry are NOT going to fund fundamental or experimental research due to relatively low margins.

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#35

Post by aiisjustanif »

sct202 wrote: post #7

Postdocs are such a scam role. These are PHD educated scientists who have spent 4+ years on PHD getting paid like $50k-$70k/year with basically dead end jobs where they must leave to another place to get a tenure track role since they're already considered 2nd class at the institution the postdoc is at.

> getting paid like $50k-$70k/year with basically dead end jobs

$50 - 70k would be nice, but we’ve seen lower in some states

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#36

Post by nextworddev »

SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #20
nextworddev wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m guessing one big driver is fewer professor jobs open

Yeah the competition for those professor jobs is pretty fierce. Don’t you basically have to do a postdoc to be considered for a tenure track position in the States these days (unless you are some prodigy)?

Yeah, a major reason that people do post docs is to pad their research credentials and network, but that’s pointless if there are no academic jobs open. The main problem is tenure model.

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#37

Post by KuriousCat »

alephnerd wrote: post #12
betaby wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

..and having a lot of them didn't improve the situation.

There was a shortage of them already. The shortage only got worse

Postdoc system must be abolished. It is meant for individuals seeking some skills outside their discipline and has crept under the carpet to a toxic level. A PhD degree essentially states that the individual is strong enough to conduct independent research. It is oxymoronic that additional training is mandated after that.

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#38

Post by zer00eyz »

lecunn wrote: post #26
zer00eyz wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And with a BS in CS or Math what would you have made going to work for a FAANG? How do universities have all these endowments and not pay more? >> $16,800 This is like 5 weeks of work at minimum wage... You would have been better off with a side hustle at macdonalds. >> We need better PhD student and postdoc wages. Living wages would be a start, then better. EDIT: I fat fingered the 2... that was supposed to be 25...…

5 weeks of work at minimum wage is nowhere near $16,800...

I fat fingered the 2... that was supposed to be 25...

Re: Fewer U.S. scientists are pursuing postdoc positions, new data show

#40

Post by humansareok1 »

Completely unsurprising. Why get a postdoc position with wages near minimum wage, long working hours, high stress all for a small chance at a vanishing number of Tenure Track jobs when Industry pays literally 10x more in some cases with vastly better work life balance and work that is often frankly more impactful and interesting. Someone working as a postdoc sends a significant anti-signal in my opinion.
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