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Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses

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Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses

#521

Post by hgfghj »

bastardoperator wrote: post #494
paddy_m wrote: post #438

Youtube tracking analysis from a knowledgeable mariner. He says that at about 1:24 AM the ship loses power (from video feed) while traveling 8.5 knots. at 1:25.30 power is restored. at 12:25.59 the ship shows smoke. The ship has already drifted in the channel. It is believed that at this time the ship applied full reverse power as evidenced by the black smoke. (My analysis: the ship drifted but hasn't turned in the c…

The video is surreal, it looks like it barely bumps the bridge and 2 seconds later the entire thing is gone. I don't know what I was expecting, the bridge just looked extremely fragile, makes me wonder what other bridges are at risk of an event like this.

That ship had a 10,000 TEU capacity and was actually hauling a little under 5,000 TEUs. An empty container weighs a little over 5,000lbs, and a full one can be up to 67,000lbs.

If you do the math, you find that it’s just an astronomical amount of momentum, and there’s no effective defense for a bridge that needs support in more than 30 or so feet of water.

Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses

#523

Post by low_common »

tokai wrote: post #377
btbuildem wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think about this for a minute, you'll realize that what you're asking for is pretty much impossible. What would these artificial islands be made of? Sand, gravel, concrete rubble? This is a river, the constant current of the water erodes anything that resists it by staying in place. Piling up enough material to resist erosion and create a meaningful obstacle to 70000 tonnes in motion, that would significantly…

I have thought about it for hours by now, and read literature on the matter. It is definitely possible to build berms that protects a bridge from catastrophic failure in case of a ship collision, and it is widely done during modern bridge construction. Please be less sure of yourself when you clearly don't have any actual knowledge on the subject.

"I have thought about it for hours by now, and read literature on the matter." Ah, the classic, pompous Hacker News user. The Baltimore Port Authority should've hired you to prevent this disaster - you're a genius!

Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses

#524

Post by COGlory »

68b329da9893e34 wrote: post #513
wizerdrobe wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s called being human. I worked next door to the church that was shot up in Charleston and felt similarly moved despite not knowing them, never having been inside the building, and not having even been a Christian at the time. It is a bit strange at some level - not having any true connection beyond proximity but you should probably worry if you _don’t_ at least feel a little something.

[flagged]

> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I don't even know where to start with this comment.

Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses

#525

Post by JohnMakin »

divbzero wrote: post #509
ajdude wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was incredibly worried about my dad, he's a truck driver and drove that bridge just an hour prior to this happening. I'm hearing there were at least 20 cars and a truck on the bridge, plus construction workers, at the time; my heart goes out to those families

Glad to hear your dad made it across safely. According to current reports, the Maryland Transportation Authority Police responded to the ship’s “mayday” and stopped traffic in the minutes before the catastrophe, but 6 construction workers are still unaccounted for. https://www.baltimoresun.com/2024/03/26/key-bridge-collapses...

They keep reporting this, and maybe it was because the video was sped up, but it looked like there was still traffic going across until very close to the collision

Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses

#526

Post by HaZeust »

sybercecurity wrote: post #515

For those who want to hear up to date news, some local sites are: WBAL https://wbal.com/ WTOP https://wtop.com/ Two local news radio stations. Fans of The Wire series may have heard WBAL in the background in some of the scenes, it's a Baltimore institution since everyone wants to get traffic updates.

TRAFFIC AND WEATHER ON THE 8's AND WHEN IT BREAKS!

WBAL and WTOP has been a great service to cover the great disarray of Baltimore over the last decade.

Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses

#527

Post by anigbrowl »

bastardoperator wrote: post #494
paddy_m wrote: post #438

Youtube tracking analysis from a knowledgeable mariner. He says that at about 1:24 AM the ship loses power (from video feed) while traveling 8.5 knots. at 1:25.30 power is restored. at 12:25.59 the ship shows smoke. The ship has already drifted in the channel. It is believed that at this time the ship applied full reverse power as evidenced by the black smoke. (My analysis: the ship drifted but hasn't turned in the c…

The video is surreal, it looks like it barely bumps the bridge and 2 seconds later the entire thing is gone. I don't know what I was expecting, the bridge just looked extremely fragile, makes me wonder what other bridges are at risk of an event like this.

It's not the impact, it's the fact that it just keeps pushing. Movies commonly use slow motion and time extension via editing for destruction scenes because (as we've just seen) real time doesn't always look impressive to the untrained eye.

Also, there's a lot of mass concentrated in that ship. It's the equivalent of hitting a window with a sledgehammer. Small recreational vessels could probably crash into those pylons all day long.

Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses

#528

Post by throwup238 »

pyuser583 wrote: post #499
gumby wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they have the responsibility, not the captain, as evidenced by the specific insurance they carry. Of course, lawyers will try to spread the blame around (who chose the pilot, did captain's actions or orders somehow get in the way of the pilot; did captain not ensure engines were working properly...). But the base responsibility lies with the pilot. It probably helps the captain that this was a ship owned and ope…

I thought the pilot only offered “guidance” to avoid responsibility. I learned that from a documentary on the Panama Canal. Is that just a Panama Canal thing? Or should I find better documentaries?

You might have misunderstood the difference between controlling the ship and commanding it. The Panama Canal Authority pilot controls navigation and maneuvering to get through the canal but the captain is still in command of the vessel and ultimately responsible for it.

Canal accidents cost so much that they're each individually investigated and insurance companies fight over who is liable. Sometimes it's the pilot's fault and ACP's insurance pays out, sometimes it's the shipping company's insurance, and sometimes they split the cost.

Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses

#529

Post by Symbiote »

mhb wrote: post #329
squigz wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many people would need to die for it to be justified in your eyes? Or maybe just focus on the potential loss of cargo from trucks on the bridge, if that helps you.

How many? It depends on the opportunity cost of installing and maintaining whatever half baked thing (lights, sirens, computer vision, AI, barriers) it is OP is envisioning on how many thousands of bridges versus the frequency of issues it will prevent. This calculation is done all the time but not so much by the "if it saves only one x" crowd of clever solution proposers.

Large bridges like this in Europe already have lights and sometimes barriers to allow them to be closed if there are very high winds, or a vehicle collision.

Adding a system that turns the lights red doesn't seem so expensive, it existed in Denmark in 2001 when a ship almost hit the Great Belt Bridge:

Road signs and barriers, normally used to slow traffic in bad weather [1]

(Autotranslation of [2])

> The VTS system (Vessel Traffic Service) must monitor and guide the ships, so that ships approaching the West Bridge and parts of the East Bridge can be avoided. In the event of danger of hitting the bridges, the navigators must trigger an alarm in accordance with detailed rules. The most critical are two bridge sections on the East Bridge over the connection spans to the anchor blocks (each 1-2 kilometres). If a ship is heading in there - where there are no artificial islands - the alarm must be given four minutes before approaching - so that the bridge section can be cleared. On the West Bridge, the warning time is not so critical, as you can see in good time if a ship is on the wrong track. The system operates using three radars, two infrared video cameras and two photosensitive ditto plus a standard VHF antenna system (see graphic). The station is continuously in contact with all ships over 50 gross tonnes and with a mast height of over 15 metres. The ship's call number, name, cargo, destination, draft, mast height, etc. are registered on arrival at the reporting lines, and when the ship and station are contacted on VHF channel 11, the ship is automatically marked (tracked) and provided with the call number, course and speed. At the same time, the computer goes in and calculates course and speed for the next 10 minutes, which can be seen as a yellow line in front of the radar signal, which is shaped like a tuft of wool. If a ship does not want to report, goes astray or refuses to follow the VTS navigator's instructions, the VTS station disposes of one of the fleet's rejection vessels, which has the authority to give orders to the foreign masters.

[1] https://www.google.com/maps/@55.3498198,11.1018692,3a,75y,26...

[2] https://web.archive.org/web/20090116051425/http://ing.dk/art...

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