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Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses

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Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses

#461

Post by paddy_m »

lenerdenator wrote: post #453
paddy_m wrote: post #438

Youtube tracking analysis from a knowledgeable mariner. He says that at about 1:24 AM the ship loses power (from video feed) while traveling 8.5 knots. at 1:25.30 power is restored. at 12:25.59 the ship shows smoke. The ship has already drifted in the channel. It is believed that at this time the ship applied full reverse power as evidenced by the black smoke. (My analysis: the ship drifted but hasn't turned in the c…

How common are power outages on ships? I get that the captain might not have responded to it correctly but that seems like a thing that shouldn't happen, at least in my completely uneducated opinion.

It shouldn't happen. There will be investigations. I think that having a properly operating ship is the captain's responsibility.

But the ship's pilot [1] (not captain) should know exactly how the boat will handle and the exact course of action. Pilots are extremely well paid ($200-$400k) and the tests are very stringent. Friends have told me that the Narraganset Bay pilot test involves drawing every shipping navigation bouy on a map by hand to within ~200 yards from memory alone, compass, ruler and scaled map provided.

Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses

#462

Post by fortran77 »

The speculation on hacker news vs reality is interesting to note. Don't guess before the facts are out.

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/major-baltimore-bridge-c...

> The container shipper that caused the collapse of a major bridge in Baltimore early Tuesday morning issued a Mayday call indicating that it had lost power shortly before it struck the bridge’s piling, allowing state officials to close the bridge to traffic in a move that likely saved lives, Baltimore mayor Brandon Scott said at a press conference held as search-and-rescue efforts continued.

Yes, they have traffic control on the bridge, and they stopped traffic when they got the mayday.

Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses

#463

Post by mhb »

jgys wrote: post #369
mhb wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many? It depends on the opportunity cost of installing and maintaining whatever half baked thing (lights, sirens, computer vision, AI, barriers) it is OP is envisioning on how many thousands of bridges versus the frequency of issues it will prevent. This calculation is done all the time but not so much by the "if it saves only one x" crowd of clever solution proposers.

> whatever half baked thing (lights, sirens, computer vision, AI, barriers) it is OP is envisioning Do you think OP should have produced a formal proposal with input from industry experts and detailed cost and risk mitigation figures before submitting a comment on an internet forum?

Either that or another ten seconds of rumination.

Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses

#464

Post by jordanb »

lenerdenator wrote: post #453
paddy_m wrote: post #438

Youtube tracking analysis from a knowledgeable mariner. He says that at about 1:24 AM the ship loses power (from video feed) while traveling 8.5 knots. at 1:25.30 power is restored. at 12:25.59 the ship shows smoke. The ship has already drifted in the channel. It is believed that at this time the ship applied full reverse power as evidenced by the black smoke. (My analysis: the ship drifted but hasn't turned in the c…

How common are power outages on ships? I get that the captain might not have responded to it correctly but that seems like a thing that shouldn't happen, at least in my completely uneducated opinion.

According to this book: https://www.amazon.com/Tankship-Tromedy-Impending-Disasters-...

It is quite common and vessels often have outages that leave them Not Under Command. Usually they are safely at sea when this happens and they can drift for hours without causing problems. But of course there's always a possibility of it happening at exactly the wrong moment.

The reasons for this are the usual: lack of redundancy, lack of maintenance, overworked and understaffed crews, etc. etc. The book lays out how ships are pretty much designed to be floating disasters and the Class societies (essentially privatized regulators) are in the pockets of the builders, and they are so captured that they make rules that make it difficult to make safe vessels.

For instance, he was trying to design multi-screw vessels but the rules now assume single-screwed ships and it can be impossible to design in additional shaft alleys and still conform.

Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses

#465

Post by Balgair »

peteradio wrote: post #423
Balgair wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fucking Rocket boat... Okay, story time. So, my brother was a law student in SF. He had a class on maritime law. They took at field trip to the Mare Island DHS office (I think) to learn more about the implementation of all the law they were learning. So, they learned, in response to the Cosco Busan oil spill (I think), DHS decided to put in a warning system that would track all the boats in the Bay and then alert the…

Why don't they just fine the shit out of that rocket boat company every time they pull that outrageous prank? Or throw someone in jail. Who thinks that is in any an ok prank? Can you imagine someone doing that in a car? Its just a prank bro!

I mean, I'm not the lawyer, my brother is. But I'll speculate all the same.

I don't think that they are actually doing anything illegal [0]. It seems to be perfectly fine to pilot your boat anywhere you want to. Even if that means it looks like you're gonna run into the pier. It's not like they ever actually did run into the pier anyways.

Also, per other conversations with my brother, maritime law is not like 'normal' law. When we say that the US constitution is the supreme law of the land, that isn't just a turn of phrase. That literally mean 'the land'. Not the ocean. Maritime law is, from what I remember, the oldest law we have. And as such, things in maritime law aren't what you'd think.

Like, if you want to impound a boat, they have these really really comically large boat-cuffs that you have to use. And you have to do these strange legal gymnastics to actually impound a boat. Because, well, it's a boat. You can just take it over the horizon and effectively the captain will just never be seen again. It's not like the land where it's hard to get to another jurisdiction. In a boat, it's really easy. That's kinda the point of a boat.

Things like credit and ownership also work really funky too. Like, if you own the boat, but aren't actually on the boat when it goes out to sea, you're really just kinda hoping that the captain comes back. Not just due to freak storms, but also you really have to trust the captain. So things like credit and how money works on the sea are just different. Because it's so damn easy to just not come back.

If any real lawyers want to join in, please do. Again, I'm not a maritime lawyer, my brother is.

[0] To note here, the Rocket Boat company went bust in 2019, apparently. They're trying to bring it back, but seem to be struggling with the aftereffects of covid and whatnot.

Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses

#466

Post by [deleted] »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #347
zeteo wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to build the bridge to an absurd strength, but it may have been insufficiently marked as a navigational hazard. Something like a few well-lit pillars 500 feet upstream in the water would have given the ship plenty of warning to change course, since a vessel travelling at 5 knots takes about a minute to go 500 feet. The total bridge length is on the order of 10,000 feet, so widening the safe area around…

I've seen close-up video where you can see the ship losing electrical power twice for not-insubstantial times as it approaches the column. I suspect that was a much larger factor in the collision than anything the crew may or may not have done. Warning time doesn't mean shit if you can't steer.

[deleted]

Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses

#468

Post by ToucanLoucan »

kossTKR wrote: post #444
nytesky wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://twitter.com/ChaudharyParvez/status/17725385394958090... Posted video of power loss. Also black smoke coming out rear — is that normal? Any clue of what onboard crisis they were dealing with?

It seems traffic has stopped in the last moments before the hit? Also looks like it's emergency vehicles in standstill that are falling, i can't discern any moving cars at collapse?

I heard through the grape vine they were able to halt traffic across the bridge at the last minute. Only people actually on it when it fell were construction workers who were filling potholes at the time.

Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses

#469

Post by vcg3rd »

kossTKR wrote: post #444
nytesky wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://twitter.com/ChaudharyParvez/status/17725385394958090... Posted video of power loss. Also black smoke coming out rear — is that normal? Any clue of what onboard crisis they were dealing with?

It seems traffic has stopped in the last moments before the hit? Also looks like it's emergency vehicles in standstill that are falling, i can't discern any moving cars at collapse?

The ship's mayday gave them enough time to stop most, but not all, traffic, according to the MD Governor.

Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses

#470

Post by yunwal »

acdha wrote: post #228
mcv wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's a very major port, they can afford to make it a tunnel.

Tunnels are far more expensive - the 1.5 mile 4 lane Fort McHenry tunnel was like $750M vs. $140M for the 1.6 mile 4 lane Key bridge, although adjusted for inflation that’s probably more like $750M vs $320M. The underlying problem here is that automobiles are inherently inefficient so you either get epic traffic jams or have to massively overbuild capacity, forcing the engineers to deliver as many lanes as they can f…

How expensive is this accident to the city? Likely billions, right?
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