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When did dogs become our best friends?

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Re: When did dogs become our best friends?

#111

Post by lukan »

8338550bff96 wrote: post #94
lenerdenator wrote: post #39

Likely twice as old as written language. https://www.livescience.com/stone-age-dog-burial.html Abuse of a dog or cat is a crime against civilization itself.

I've made this argument many times and it always raises eyebrows and induces shrugs. We as a species co-evolved with some animals and not others. Our partnership with extends deep into the mists of pre-history. We and they have co-evolved to an extent to be better companions. Eating a dog is a profound betrayal unlike that of eating a horse. Come at me

Compagnions and friends?

Maybe when we were nomads and the dogs roamed around freely around the tribe.

But most dogs today are locked in, most of the time and when they get outside, they are on a leash. Totally dependant on their human masters.

I don't think I would describe that relationship as a partnership.

Then there is the concept of breeding them, to establish certain "cute" traits, but cause great pain and misery to the animal:

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualzucht (german)

I would argue, the native american tribes, who also did eat their dogs, treated them better overall, than humanity does today on average. So many dogs bred for running around, are lucky today, if they get to walk around outside for more than 20 minutes. This I would call betrayal.

Re: When did dogs become our best friends?

#112

Post by cmrdporcupine »

sph wrote: post #22
lordnacho wrote: post #6

[flagged]

Your funny comment actually has some deep insight I'd like to see researched more. We know by now how we turned the grey wolf into the dog, but do we know what the relationship has done for us ? What have wolves taught humans? Some hypotheses to get you started: they might've taught us the power of collaboration. The power of social hierarchy. The empathy towards other life forms. Anthropomorphism (maybe that's why w…

I mean, have you ever watched a working dog in action? I have two border collies and we never trained them to herd or anything but holy crap are they enthused to use their intellect and body to work for you in any way they possibly can, and solve whatever puzzles you give them. It obviously gives them insane pleasure to do so.

Watching a collie herding dog in action, or I presume a hunting dog, is quite amazing. Hard to believe humans wouldn't have watched and learned.

Also that 14,000 year domestication date mentioned in the article sounds remarkably similar to the dates humans began the processing of "domesticating" (settling) themselves, and is basically the marker for the end of the last ice age, too. Keeping crops and herds of animals and building permanent villages to guard and control definitely benefits from having canines (and felines for pest control, too).

Re: When did dogs become our best friends?

#113

Post by nradov »

ethanbond wrote: post #5
xandrius wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a low-trust country such as Italy, I'd say that it would be useful. Also it would depend on the specific commune and not a country-wide requirement.

Also necessary in NYC which I don’t really feel is low-trust in general.

Hardly anyone in NYC would comply with such a law. They would just ignore it. The city could perhaps require DNA testing by animal shelters and legitimate breeders within it's borders. But many dogs come from elsewhere, or from backyard breeders who don't care about laws.

Re: When did dogs become our best friends?

#114

Post by vkou »

lupusreal wrote: post #103
ethanbond wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think a single parameter like that makes it "definitely" low-trust. In Austria, people are required to deposit money to borrow a grocery cart while shopping for food. Not so anywhere I've been in the US -- ergo Austria is low-trust and US is high-trust? I think not. https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travelbuzz/2004272-euro-coin...

The US has those, Aldi uses them. But isn't this because they don't have cart boys to bring the carts from corals throughout the parking lot back to the front of the store? It's just a different model of cart management, not indicative of trust or lack thereof. If somebody wanted to steal a cart, that quarter is a trivial price for it. It's not an anti-theft measure, just a little thing to encourage honest people to…

My bar for low-trust is 'Should I expect to have to bribe public and private officials to get them to perform their duties, most of the time'?

The US is relatively high trust in this space. And I don't know of many countries that will pass the bike test. Certainly, nowhere in Europe would.

Maybe we could try a different test - how afraid is the society of itself. Count how often you see cops, how well-armed they are, etc...

Re: When did dogs become our best friends?

#115

Post by HarHarVeryFunny »

IncreasePosts wrote: post #110
sph wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do primates in the wild keep pets? I know some captive gorillas had cats.

Baboons have been observed to capture puppies from feral dogs and integrate them into their troop.

Interesting - I'd never head of this. There seems to be some debate over whether these puppies/dogs might be considered as pets, but perhaps it was the same for early humans too - domesticating cats (egyptians) and dogs for their utility at controlling pests and guarding/warning against intruders, then later warming to their furry friends.

Re: When did dogs become our best friends?

#116

Post by sph »

8338550bff96 wrote: post #94
lenerdenator wrote: post #39

Likely twice as old as written language. https://www.livescience.com/stone-age-dog-burial.html Abuse of a dog or cat is a crime against civilization itself.

I've made this argument many times and it always raises eyebrows and induces shrugs. We as a species co-evolved with some animals and not others. Our partnership with extends deep into the mists of pre-history. We and they have co-evolved to an extent to be better companions. Eating a dog is a profound betrayal unlike that of eating a horse. Come at me

I am OK with some cultures not eating some meats: pork for the muslims or jews, horse for some Western countries, sometimes rabbit. Where I'm from (Italy) we eat both horse and rabbits.

But I too draw the line at eating dogs and cats, except during extreme survival situations where it's eat your pet (or fellow human) to avoid starvation. I feel eating canids and felids as taboo as eating a primate, or eating a human.

Re: When did dogs become our best friends?

#117

Post by baal80spam »

Jrjrir48 wrote: post #102
prmoustache wrote: post #51

As a cyclist, I can't say dogs are my best friends. OTOH I have had great bonds with some cats.

I do hiking, the same. Pepper spray, knife etc are illegal here. I carry air horn for quick deployment, and petards (very small explosives). Saved my ass twice! Once I was surrounded by pack of four large dogs!

Wait, what? What country is a self-defense item like a pepper spray illegal in?

Re: When did dogs become our best friends?

#118

Post by xandrius »

smugglerFlynn wrote: post #69
xandrius wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a low-trust country such as Italy, I'd say that it would be useful. Also it would depend on the specific commune and not a country-wide requirement.

Isn’t solving trust issues with further mistrust leads to an even lower trust in the end? (genuinely interested because “low-trust/high-trust communities” concept is a topic I know nothing about.)

Good point. I really don't think a country can switch side (high to low and viceversa) within a short timespan, maybe not even within a generation.

So, if you want to solve the issue, you use the methods which work in the affected area.

In high trust, as long as the thing is seeing benefitting most, it is often followed. In low trust, breaking a rule is often seen as a sign of independence and generally being cool, so you need to put deterrents to make it uncool to get caught.

At least, this is coming from my own personal experience living in different countries. Might not be the same everywhere.

Re: When did dogs become our best friends?

#119

Post by xandrius »

vkou wrote: post #114
lupusreal wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has those, Aldi uses them. But isn't this because they don't have cart boys to bring the carts from corals throughout the parking lot back to the front of the store? It's just a different model of cart management, not indicative of trust or lack thereof. If somebody wanted to steal a cart, that quarter is a trivial price for it. It's not an anti-theft measure, just a little thing to encourage honest people to…

My bar for low-trust is 'Should I expect to have to bribe public and private officials to get them to perform their duties, most of the time'? The US is relatively high trust in this space. And I don't know of many countries that will pass the bike test. Certainly, nowhere in Europe would. Maybe we could try a different test - how afraid is the society of itself. Count how often you see cops, how well-armed they are,…

For me the test is: if possible, would an individual skip paying the ticket for a public transport if they know almost nobody will check?

It's so trivial and yet it shows how much the society cares about its own systems functioning properly or not.

Re: When did dogs become our best friends?

#120

Post by zen928 »

lukan wrote: post #111
8338550bff96 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've made this argument many times and it always raises eyebrows and induces shrugs. We as a species co-evolved with some animals and not others. Our partnership with extends deep into the mists of pre-history. We and they have co-evolved to an extent to be better companions. Eating a dog is a profound betrayal unlike that of eating a horse. Come at me

Compagnions and friends? Maybe when we were nomads and the dogs roamed around freely around the tribe. But most dogs today are locked in, most of the time and when they get outside, they are on a leash. Totally dependant on their human masters. I don't think I would describe that relationship as a partnership. Then there is the concept of breeding them, to establish certain "cute" traits, but cause great pain and mis…

> I would argue, the native american tribes, who also did eat their dogs, treated them better overall, than humanity does today on average. So many dogs bred for running around, are lucky today, if they get to walk around outside for more than 20 minutes. This I would call betrayal.

Do you relatively equate this to how we treat other animals right now, killing the planet's livable ecosystems while exclusively creating living spaces and amenities for these domestic pets and treating the nature they come from as second class? Tens to hundreds of thousands of unique species and subspecies go extinct at previously unrecorded rates, but selective breeding of vanity traits in pet animals remains a common past time. There's clearly an attachment to these animals and breeds that keeps them in our conscious above others to consider it worthwhile to hold them in public reverence in a way that can still be described as companionship.

We've flipped the needle on adapting them for survival companionship to (essentially) slaved ownership with the aftereffects like you've mentioned, but I think zooming in on the scale of an individual societies' treatment won't generally be favorable. We barely even treat our own species with a level of achievable compassion for anyone deemed undesirable or are a lower class, the betrayal starts earlier than our treatment towards dogs.

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