Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Android Fragmentation Visualized

opensignalmaps.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 91 posts

Re: Android Fragmentation Visualized

#41

Post by sciurus »

cube13 wrote: post #31
sciurus wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative isn't for all these devices of different sizes and capabilities not to exist. The alternative is for them all the be running even more disparate, vendor-specific operating systems. We should be thankful for the degree of unification Android's success has brought.

One of the annoyances I've had with Android, from a new consumer's point of view, is that it's presented as this monolithic OS that's the same across every phone. But once you do the research, you find that it's really not. Except for the Nexus line, there really isn't a "Google Android" experience. When you buy an Android device, you're really buying HTC's, Samsung's, Amazon's or Motorola's Android. Every device has…

"No, the alternative is for Google to exert control over the device manufacturers and state that if they're going to be using the Android OS, they need to support and update their devices to the latest version for at least 2 years after the phones are released."

You think that would cause the manufacturers to change their behavior in order to stay certified as Android compatible? I think that would lead the major manufacturers to fork Android, like Amazon has done for the Kindle Fire.

Re: Android Fragmentation Visualized

#42

Post by taligent »

huggyface wrote: post #33
taligent wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very few issues ? Clearly you don't know what your talking about. I work in a team that does Android and mobile website development. We NEED 20+ devices versus 4 for Apple. And there are lots of vendor specific issues which require you to own those devices even just for comparing web site rendering behavior. And there is nothing magic about Android working on different devices i.e. it's not like ICS works on them. Th…

I work in a team that does Android and mobile website development. We NEED 20+ devices versus 4 for Apple Just to be clear, you're the guy who "researched" Android by looking at the public, everyone-knows-about-it Platform Versions breakdown this morning . And you're schooling me on Android. Delightful. I have actual public apps. The only real issue are a small number of devices where the HAL essentially lies (which…

I didn't research anything. I work for a large multinational and our team is responsible for some of the most popular public apps and websites on the entire platform. So yes. I see first hand what it takes to support them.

And the problems with Android are far, far beyond just GPU issues. It is the fact that the most popular devices are also the ones running old versions.

Re: Android Fragmentation Visualized

#43

Post by king_jester »

taligent wrote: post #10
nextparadigms wrote: post #2

So what can Google do to reduce the problem? Release only one major version of Android every year? Every 3 years like Windows? Release a private "beta" version for most manufacturers (not just one like now) so that they all have devices with the new OS on the official launch day? Develop better abstraction layers for hardware? Force manufacturers to use only a few resolutions like 480x320, 800x480 and 1280x720 (retin…

They really need to structure the OS so that the core components can be updated independent of the vendor ones. Then just ship updates regardless of what vendors do. People act like Google is somehow unique here. Microsoft and Linux support a vastly more complex array of hardware configurations and still manages to support a diverse ecosystem above the core OS.

> They really need to structure the OS so that the core components can be updated independent of the vendor ones. Then just ship updates regardless of what vendors do.

Except that won't work because what vendors do is modify core system components. Network stacks, audio/video codecs, system themes, etc. are all things changed by carriers and manufacturers for a variety of reasons.

There are two core reasons why Android OS updates are slow to roll out:

1) there is no profit motive to upgrade phones that have already passed their prime retail lifespan

2) modifications made my carriers/manufacturers are not simple and often have dramatic consequences for how the phone and apps on the phone behave

For companies like Microsoft, there is a profit motive to updating released software and selling larger OS upgrades at a price. For Linux users, the onus to upgrade comes from the users themselves, much like how there are those that choose to install custom ROMs on Android to get those advanced features.

Regardless, the fact that you can create an Android app that runs on so many hardware configurations is extraordinary. The downside to the popularity is that its likely your app won't run on every hardware configuration, so the question is how will Google mitigate that problem?

Re: Android Fragmentation Visualized

#44

Post by luigi »

taligent wrote: post #12
luigi wrote: post #5

It seems to me that the best way to think of Android is to compare it to the world of Linux distros. (I believe Dan Benjamin of 5by5 pointed this out on one of his podcasts.) Yes, there's Linux, but there's no one Linux. There's Android, but there's no one Android. So while Android is technically an operating system, it's really an open platform on which to build mobile devices on top of. So the Android device I buy…

The difference is Linux has its act together. Android doesn't. Right now I can SSH into a vastly different array of hardware and update a roughly equivalent set of packages to get for example the latest rendering engine or security fixes. This is not possible at all on Android which is a joke. And I will never understand how people such as yourself can defend it. Fragmentation is a huge issue for Android and it is on…

I'm not defending it, I'm explaining it.

Google has created an open ecosystem, and these are the natural consequences. Google can't "do something about it" because of the open terms of their licensing.

Re: Android Fragmentation Visualized

#46

Post by ajross »

jcromartie wrote: post #40
ajross wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're mixing things up, so I'd suggest going back to do more research. Honeycomb was tablet-only, it was never released for handsets. That's like complaining that only 7% (or whatever) of iOS users can run iPad apps, it's meaningless. ICS uptake, however, has been ploddingly slow. It's finally breaking through now as the vendors clear out their holiday inventory and start pushing new models.

Yeah, I'm not up to speed on Android. But, so, that only accounts for 3% of the users. It still means only %5 are on ICS, and the rest are basically on 2.3. So the process for developing a new iOS app today is: 1. Download latest SDK 2. Develop for iOS 5.1 For Android, it seems to necessarily be: 1. Download latest SDK 2. Develop for Android 2.3

Pretty much, yes. New features in ICS need to be viewed as optional and probed if you're going to use them. Though to be fair there really aren't that many you'd really want -- ICS focused more on the core apps and user experience than it did on extending the platform APIs.

Also, my memory is that something like 20-30% of iOS users weren't on 5 yet. Is that wrong?

Re: Android Fragmentation Visualized

#47

Post by robot »

gravitronic wrote: post #32
luigi wrote: post #5

It seems to me that the best way to think of Android is to compare it to the world of Linux distros. (I believe Dan Benjamin of 5by5 pointed this out on one of his podcasts.) Yes, there's Linux, but there's no one Linux. There's Android, but there's no one Android. So while Android is technically an operating system, it's really an open platform on which to build mobile devices on top of. So the Android device I buy…

Spoken like someone who isn't an Android developer. Take your analogy to the next step. Someone opens an online store that sells binary-only copies of applications targeted to just "Linux".. you would call them crazy, no? That's what the Google Market is. Or the Amazon Market, samsung apps, nook store, ... I wrote a blog post to help you understand the pragmatic issues faced by an Android developer trying to write de…

Add to that the fact that every device has a different processor model, gpu, and most of the software on the device is locked.

Re: Android Fragmentation Visualized

#48

Post by jcromartie »

ajross wrote: post #46
jcromartie wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm not up to speed on Android. But, so, that only accounts for 3% of the users. It still means only %5 are on ICS, and the rest are basically on 2.3. So the process for developing a new iOS app today is: 1. Download latest SDK 2. Develop for iOS 5.1 For Android, it seems to necessarily be: 1. Download latest SDK 2. Develop for Android 2.3

Pretty much, yes. New features in ICS need to be viewed as optional and probed if you're going to use them. Though to be fair there really aren't that many you'd really want -- ICS focused more on the core apps and user experience than it did on extending the platform APIs. Also, my memory is that something like 20-30% of iOS users weren't on 5 yet. Is that wrong?

About 80% of users are on iOS 5.0+, so, 20% are < 5.0. But the 20% that are < 5.0 are not the ones that will be downloading and installing fancy new apps. If they were big app consumers, they would update the OS.

Re: Android Fragmentation Visualized

#49

Post by gravitronic »

luigi wrote: post #38
gravitronic wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoken like someone who isn't an Android developer. Take your analogy to the next step. Someone opens an online store that sells binary-only copies of applications targeted to just "Linux".. you would call them crazy, no? That's what the Google Market is. Or the Amazon Market, samsung apps, nook store, ... I wrote a blog post to help you understand the pragmatic issues faced by an Android developer trying to write de…

Right, the problem is with the Google Market, Amazon Market, et. al. It's not with Android as a platform (or operating system). The problem is that Google copied the "App Store" idea for software distribution that Apple created for their iPhone. Instead, they should have gone with the same idea that Linux distros use: The product vendor is responsible for distributing the software for the product. That would look com…

..?

I don't see a personal attack in my message. Your original post suggested that android fragmentation is not a problem if I just think of it differently. A logical extension of that is that it's my fault for seeing it as a problem as I'm dealing with it incorrectly.

That doesn't make my users any happier. It doesn't make their bug reports go away. That doesn't make their phones all mount to the same mountpoint. It doesn't make me sleep better at night.

That's not an attack. Neither is claiming your viewpoint is one of a non-developer because pragmatically speaking a developer deals with these problems daily so "thinking of it differently" really makes no difference to the size of the problem.

Please don't accuse me of a logical fallacy here, thank you.

Re: Android Fragmentation Visualized

#50

Post by nextparadigms »

luigi wrote: post #5

It seems to me that the best way to think of Android is to compare it to the world of Linux distros. (I believe Dan Benjamin of 5by5 pointed this out on one of his podcasts.) Yes, there's Linux, but there's no one Linux. There's Android, but there's no one Android. So while Android is technically an operating system, it's really an open platform on which to build mobile devices on top of. So the Android device I buy…

It's close to that, but not quite. Android is a bit more centralized, so apps are pretty much guaranteed to work on all versions of Android, while on Linux you need different packages for different distros and so on.

But I do think Google could do a lot more to centralize and standardize the platform and the app ecosystem.

Post reply on HN