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Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

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Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#61

Post by [deleted] »

rat9988 wrote: post #57
hdlothia wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure the articles you cited are enough to prove that all of his decrees went un-enforced but I appreciate the rebuttal and added context. What we can both agree on is there was widespread persecution and the relationship was not as rosy as some would claim.

You seem hell-bent on not compromising with his position despite writing we can both agree. Can you agree that in the more-than-a-millenia of history there were some rosy relationships without widespread persecution too?

[deleted]

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#62

Post by [deleted] »

rat9988 wrote: post #57
hdlothia wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure the articles you cited are enough to prove that all of his decrees went un-enforced but I appreciate the rebuttal and added context. What we can both agree on is there was widespread persecution and the relationship was not as rosy as some would claim.

You seem hell-bent on not compromising with his position despite writing we can both agree. Can you agree that in the more-than-a-millenia of history there were some rosy relationships without widespread persecution too?

[deleted]

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#64

Post by seanhunter »

Sorry for the sidetrack, but that is such an incredibly beautiful object, with those delicate etched hyperbolae. So much skill and craft went into making it and you can see that it is a superbly-designed practical tool that was well-used. It's quite humbling to see things like that.

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#65

Post by ars »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #56
ars wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably not taught in the US, but it's certainly taught in Israel, but they also include the periods after that when Arabs started massacring and prosecuting Jews. It's not a single time period, a lot of stuff happened, and the relationship changed - and not because of Israel (history didn't start in 1948).

1000% the current state of Islamo-Judaic relations is because of Israel. I really cannot fathom what alternate reality is otherwise. How you want to decide who to blame for what is a different story, but the fact is what it is. History didn't begin in 1948, but the formation of Israel (which began before WWII) is what kicked off the current colder than ice relations between the two religions.

> I really cannot fathom what alternate reality is otherwise.

So all the massacres of Jews by Arabs before 1948 were done via time machine?

> is what kicked off the current colder than ice relations between the two religions.

This is laughably false.

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#66

Post by someotherperson »

hdlothia wrote: post #43
someotherperson wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are examples of widespread persecution, but this is incredibly low effort. Al-Mutawakkil (who was Uzbek and Greek, for what it's worth) was a psychopath that didn't represent the general Islamic view. The pressures he placed on Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians and even other internal Islamic sects was not a popular view. Christians were regularly teaming up with Muslims to riot against the bad leadership[0]. The…

I'm not sure the articles you cited are enough to prove that all of his decrees went un-enforced but I appreciate the rebuttal and added context. What we can both agree on is there was widespread persecution and the relationship was not as rosy as some would claim.

Well, the more serious decrees (such as demolition of churches to punish Christian groups) didn't happen[0], so by extension we can assume that the much more minor ones weren't likely enforced either.

But yeah to call it all rosy is definitely rewriting history. All Abrahamic faiths are hyper-aggressive and whenever we've seen politicization of one we see the suffering of other faiths. Of course on differing degrees as different leaderships and empires came and went.

[0] Almost all of these churches were eventually destroyed/taken over later, sometimes centuries later, but not during his lifetime.

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#67

Post by aprilthird2021 »

ars wrote: post #65
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1000% the current state of Islamo-Judaic relations is because of Israel. I really cannot fathom what alternate reality is otherwise. How you want to decide who to blame for what is a different story, but the fact is what it is. History didn't begin in 1948, but the formation of Israel (which began before WWII) is what kicked off the current colder than ice relations between the two religions.

> I really cannot fathom what alternate reality is otherwise. So all the massacres of Jews by Arabs before 1948 were done via time machine? > is what kicked off the current colder than ice relations between the two religions. This is laughably false.

You didn't read my comment. The formation of Israel began earlier than 1948. Arabs and Jews didn't begin killing each other out of nowhere. They did it over land disagreements which began because of Zionism which was almost a century old and being implemented well before WWII came around. Please learn history and stop spreading disinfo

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#68

Post by ars »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #67
ars wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really cannot fathom what alternate reality is otherwise. So all the massacres of Jews by Arabs before 1948 were done via time machine? > is what kicked off the current colder than ice relations between the two religions. This is laughably false.

You didn't read my comment. The formation of Israel began earlier than 1948. Arabs and Jews didn't begin killing each other out of nowhere. They did it over land disagreements which began because of Zionism which was almost a century old and being implemented well before WWII came around. Please learn history and stop spreading disinfo

That's an ... interesting alternate history. But modern Zionism started in 1882, yet the Genocide of Safed was in 1834.

Reading the article about it it's clear the local authorities did not prosecute Jews as a policy - but, the local population was full of hate for Jews.

You see it over and over when reading the history of the area - the official policy allowed Jews, while the individual people wanted to kill the Jews. Nothing has changed today.

And the hate for Jews was obviously not because of modern Israel, since that didn't exist, not was even thought of.

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#69

Post by aprilthird2021 »

ars wrote: post #68
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't read my comment. The formation of Israel began earlier than 1948. Arabs and Jews didn't begin killing each other out of nowhere. They did it over land disagreements which began because of Zionism which was almost a century old and being implemented well before WWII came around. Please learn history and stop spreading disinfo

That's an ... interesting alternate history. But modern Zionism started in 1882, yet the Genocide of Safed was in 1834. Reading the article about it it's clear the local authorities did not prosecute Jews as a policy - but, the local population was full of hate for Jews. You see it over and over when reading the history of the area - the official policy allowed Jews, while the individual people wanted to kill the Jew…

If you think I'm saying anyone anywhere hating Jews in the modern day is only because of Israel, then we're on different wavelengths. The overall, global decline in healthy relations between the religions largely has its locus in the creation and sustaining of Israel. Just as there are violent clashes there are good interactions, but the current political reality has subdued the latter and increased the former.

It's the same way as the creation of modern Pakistan has substantially decreased good relations between Muslims and Hindus. The idea that either side is wholly evil and the opposite is justified in its hate is completely contrary to everything we know about human beings. The average Hindu is very amenable to growing animosity towards Muslims when he sees his nation's arch rival, an ethno-religious state, send spies over the border, orchestrate bombings, etc. And that's how many in the Muslim world feel about Israel who has also orchestrated bombings, assassinations, etc. in their countries.

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#70

Post by ars »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #69
ars wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an ... interesting alternate history. But modern Zionism started in 1882, yet the Genocide of Safed was in 1834. Reading the article about it it's clear the local authorities did not prosecute Jews as a policy - but, the local population was full of hate for Jews. You see it over and over when reading the history of the area - the official policy allowed Jews, while the individual people wanted to kill the Jew…

If you think I'm saying anyone anywhere hating Jews in the modern day is only because of Israel, then we're on different wavelengths. The overall, global decline in healthy relations between the religions largely has its locus in the creation and sustaining of Israel. Just as there are violent clashes there are good interactions, but the current political reality has subdued the latter and increased the former. It's…

You are rewriting history. WHY did the creation of Israel have to be associated with bad relationships? After all the Jews purchased all the land they were going to live on, and the partition gave them empty land. And it's not like it was their national land - it was not a country. It was only personal land, and that was exchanged via purchase.

The Arabs responded with anger and a war. The reason is that hate by Arabs long predates this time period. Have a look:

https://www.jewishrefugees.org.uk/2011/01/massacre-of-jews-b...

You are writing as if Israel was some "new change" that made Arabs mad, but that's not the case, it's simply a continuation of what never changed.

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