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Vernor Vinge has died

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Re: Vernor Vinge has died

#201
post #147
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> GPT4 does inference at 560 teraflops. Human brain goes 10,000 teraflops AFAICT, both are guesses. The low-end estimate I've seen for human brains are ~ 162 GFLOPS[0] to 10^28 FLOPS[1]; even just the model size for GPT-4 isn't confirmed, merely a combination of human inference of public information with a rumour widely described as a "leak", likewise the compute requirements. [0] https://geohot.github.io//blog/jekyl…

They're not guesses. We know they use A100s and we know how fast an A100 goes. You can cut a brain open and see how many neurons it has and how often they fire. Kurzweil's 10 petaflops for the brain (100e9 neurons * 1000 connections * 200 calculations) is a bit high for me honestly. I don't think connections count as flops. If a neuron only fires 5-50 times a second then that'd put the human brain at .5 to 5 teraflop…

> They're not guesses. We know they use A100s and we know how fast an A100 goes.

And we don't know how many GPT-4 instances run on any single A100, or if it's the other way around and how many A100s are needed to run a single GPT-4 instance. We also don't know how many tokens/second any given instance produces, so multiple users may be (my guess is they are) queued on any given instance. We have a rough idea how many machines they have, but not how intensively they're being used.

> You can cut a brain open and see how many neurons it has and how often they fire. Kurzweil's 10 petaflops for the brain (100e9 neurons * 1000 connections * 200 calculations) is a bit high for me honestly. I don't think connections count as flops. If a neuron only fires 5-50 times a second then that'd put the human brain at .5 to 5 teraflops it seems to me.

You're double-counting. "If a neuron only fires 5-50 times a second" = maximum synapse firing rate * fraction of cells active at any given moment, and the 200 is what you get from assuming it could go at 1000/second (they can) but only 20% are active at any given moment (a bit on the high side, but not by much).

Total = neurons * synapses/neuron * maximum synapse firing rate * fraction of cells active at any given moment * operations per synapse firing

1e11 * 1e3 * 1e3 Hz * 10% (of your brain in use at any given moment, where the similarly phrased misconception comes from) * 1 floating point operation = 1e16/second = 10 PFLOP

It currently looks like we need more than 1 floating point operation to simulate a synapse firing.

> The other estimates like 1e28 are measuring different things.

Things which may turn out to be important for e.g. Hebbian learning. We don't know what we don't know. Our brains are much more sample-efficient than our ANNs.

Re: Vernor Vinge has died

#202
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They might generate improvements, but I’m not sure why people think those improvements would be unbounded. Think of it like improvements to jet engines or internal combustion engines - rapid improvements followed by decades of very tiny improvements. We’ve gone from 32-bit LLM weights down to 16, then 8, then 4 bit weights, and then a lot of messy diminishing returns below that. Moore’s is running on fumes for proces…

Bro, Jensen Huang just unveiled a chip yesterday that goes 20 petaflops. Intel's latest raptorlake cpu goes 800 gigaflops. Can you really explain 25000x progress by the 2x larger die size? I'm sure reactionary America wanted Moore's law to run out of steam but the Taiwanese betrayal made up for all the lost Moore's law progress and then some.

Pro tip: If you want to know who is the king of AI chips, compare FLOPS (or TOPS) per chip area, not FLOPS/chip.

As long as the bottleneck is the fab capacity as wafers per hous, the number of operations per second per chip area determines who will produce more compute with best price. It's a good measure even between different technology nodes and superchips.

Nvidia is leader for a reason.

If manufacturing capacity increases to match the demand in the future, FLOPS or TOPS per Watt may become relevant, but now it's fab capacity.

Re: Vernor Vinge has died

#203
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to clarify, the “singularity” conjectures a slightly different and more interesting phenomenon, one driven by technological advances, true, but its definition was not those advances. It was more the second derivative of future shock: technologies and culture that enabled and encouraged faster and faster change until the curve bent essentially vertical…asymptotimg to a mathematical singularity. An example my he s…

Note that the "Singularity" turns up in the novel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marooned_in_Realtime where people can use a "Bobble" to freeze themselves in a stasis field and travel in time... forward. The singularity is some mysterious event that causes all of unbobbled humanity to disappear leaving the survivors wondering, even 10s of millions of years later, what happened. As such it is one of the best pretenses…

from http://extropians.weidai.com/extropians.3Q97/4356.html

The bobble is a speculative technology that originated in Vernor Vinge's science fiction. It allows spherical volumes to be enclosed in complete stasis for controllable periods of time. It was used in _The Peace War_ as a weapon, and in _Marooned in Realtime_ as a way for humans to tunnel through the Singularity unchanged.

As far as I know, the bobble is physically impossible. However it may be possible to simulate its effects with other technologies. Here I am especially interested in the possibility of tunneling through the Singularity.

Why would anyone want to do that, you ask? Some people may have long term goals that might be disrupted by the Singularity, for example maintaining Danny Hillis's clock or keeping a record of humanity. Others may want to do it if the Singularity is approaching in an unacceptable manner and they are powerless to stop or alter it. For example an anarchist may want to escape a Singularity that is dominated by a single consciousness. A pacifist may want to escape a Singularity that is highly adversarial. Perhaps just the possibility of tunneling through the Singularity can ease people's fears about advanced technology in general.

Singularity tunneling seems to require a technology that can defend its comparatively powerless users against extremely, perhaps even unimaginably, powerful adversaries. The bobble of course is one such technology, but it is not practical. The only realistic technology that I am aware of that is even close to meeting this requirement is cryptography. In particular, given some complexity theoretic assumptions it is possible to achieve exponential security in certain restricted security models. Unfortunately these security models are not suitable for my purpose. While adversaries are allowed to have computational power that is exponential in the amount of computational power of the users, they can only interact with the users in very restricted ways, such as reading or modifying the messages they send to each other. It is unclear how to use cryptography to protect the users themselves instead of just their messages. Perhaps some sort of encrypted computation can hide their thought processes and internal states from passive monitors. But how does one protect against active physical attacks?

The reason I bring up cryptography, however, is to show that it IS possible to defend against adversaries with enormous resources at comparatively little cost, at least in certain situations. The Singularity tunneling problem should not be dismissed out of hand as being unsolvable, but rather deserves to be studied seriously. There is a very realistic chance that the Singularity may turn out to be undesirable to many of us. Perhaps it will be unstable and destroy all closely-coupled intelligence. Or maybe the only entity that emerges from it will have the "personality" of the Blight. It is important to be able to try again if the first Singularity turns out badly.

and: http://lesswrong.com/lw/jgz/aalwa_ask_any_lesswronger_anythi...

"I do have some early role models. I recall wanting to be a real-life version of the fictional "Sandor Arbitration Intelligence at the Zoo" (from Vernor Vinge's novel A Fire Upon the Deep) who in the story is known for consistently writing the clearest and most insightful posts on the Net. And then there was Hal Finney who probably came closest to an actual real-life version of Sandor at the Zoo, and Tim May who besides inspiring me with his vision of cryptoanarchy was also a role model for doing early retirement from the tech industry and working on his own interests/causes."

Re: Vernor Vinge has died

#204
post #117

Please mirror, because more people should have a copy of this: https://3e.org/vvannot This is Vinge's annotated copy of A Fire Upon the Deep. It has all his comments and discussion with editors and early readers. It provides an absolutely fascinating insight into his writing process and shows the depth of effort he put into making sure everything made sense.

There's an interview with Vinge from 2009 [0] which contains a screenshot [1] of him using Emacs with his home-brewed proto-Org-mode annotation system (which appears in parent's link).

[0]: https://web.archive.org/web/20170215121054/http://www.norwes...

[1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20170104130412/http://www.norwes...

Re: Vernor Vinge has died

#205
post #175
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually read a Fire Upon The Deep over Christmas, and then went on with the rest. The entire trilogy is pretty amazing.

I really wish he had wrapped everything up.

Yes, I've been hoping for this; one amongst many reasons to be sad that Vinge didn't live longer.

Re: Vernor Vinge has died

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, discovering Nau’s chamber of horrors is meant to strip any illusions about his motivations.

Book spoilers. IIRC wasn't it the chamber/ship of someone he worked with, that he tolerated? Read it like six or seven years ago, so the details are fuzzy. The impression I kept was that he did a lot of evil stuff not because he relished the suffering he created in others, but because he didn't mind it.

It's both. On one hand, he is aware that one of his valued subordinates "needs" to regularly murder people, and doesn't consider it an issue so long as that subordinate remains productive and is kept in check to avoid "wasting resources".

But there's also a record of him personally torturing and raping one of the captives for the sake of it - which he keeps around, presumably to rewatch every now and then.

Re: Vernor Vinge has died

#207
post #191
post #117

Please mirror, because more people should have a copy of this: https://3e.org/vvannot This is Vinge's annotated copy of A Fire Upon the Deep. It has all his comments and discussion with editors and early readers. It provides an absolutely fascinating insight into his writing process and shows the depth of effort he put into making sure everything made sense.

I got this on CD-ROM back in the 90's. It was really fun looking through stuff.

Yes, the Hugo-Nebula 1993 CD-ROM. That included some of the earliest (some say the earliest) examples of ebooks based on current fiction (rather than on out-of-copyright classic books). I have it myself still somewhere.

Re: Vernor Vinge has died

#208
post #8

Oh man, this makes me sad. I remember reading A Fire Upon the Deep based on a Usenet recommendation, and then immediately wanting to read everything else he wrote. A Deepness in the Sky is a worthy sequel. He wasn’t prolific, but what he wrote was gold. He had a Tolkienesque ability to build world depth not by lengthy exposition, but by expert omission . A true name in sci-fi.

'true name'? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Names THE cyberpunk book. Also, his later books are great but the "Across Realtime" trilogy has a special place in my heart. https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/167844

I still want augmented Chess to be a sport. You get a computer not weighing more than X pounds.

Re: Vernor Vinge has died

#209
post #8

Oh man, this makes me sad. I remember reading A Fire Upon the Deep based on a Usenet recommendation, and then immediately wanting to read everything else he wrote. A Deepness in the Sky is a worthy sequel. He wasn’t prolific, but what he wrote was gold. He had a Tolkienesque ability to build world depth not by lengthy exposition, but by expert omission . A true name in sci-fi.

I'm stuck halfway through Deepness in the Sky, I should pick it up again. Also stuck on book 8 of the Wheel of Time series, I was like 5 chapters in and didn't pick up a single thread I cared about from the previous book. Agree about the expert omission part.

Book eight may have been about when I gave up and sold the set. The dull bit in the middle of each book is when I would practice my speed reading.

About once a season I contemplate the idea of approaching either Sanderson or the Jordan estate and ask that they consider an abridged edition edited by Sanderson. You could easily knock 1500 pages out of this series and not change a single thing.

Meanwhile Rosamund Pike is doing new audio books for the series and the samples sound much better than the old one. But the first one is about forty hours. As much as I might like to claim that I would listen to her read a phone book, I don’t think I can listen to 600 hours of audiobooks for one series.

Re: Vernor Vinge has died

#210
I like to think history is like the greatest book ever written. When we are born we get to open it somewhere in the middle, spend a while figuring out what’s going on, then have to close it and never know the end. But vinge clearly peaked ahead a few chapters.
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