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Please don't learn to code

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Re: Please don't learn to code

#241

Post by Zikes »

larrys wrote: post #230
ceol wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knowing that programming could solve a problem requires knowledge of programming. Someone with zero programming experience doesn't look at a problem and say, "Yeah I can write a script to solve that."

Sorry you're wrong based on my many years experience with dealing with non-programmers and this exact situation. Seeing what is already being done with computers on a daily basis gives people knowledge of what can be done without knowledge of programming. Knowing programming but not enough could also be an impediment as well. You may not realize there are simple ways of solving an issue that to you with your limited…

I'd say they're right, based on my many years experience dealing with non-programmers and this exact situation.

Knowledge of programming and the business are both important and key here, but it's the slant towards business that can give someone the leg up on saving companies money. It isn't always about simple data entry or automation, it's going about your daily job with the insights and skills that basic programming provide that allow people to recognize where a new script or application could improve their business process in some way.

Business processes can be extremely complicated, and you can't easily impart business knowledge and processes upon a programmer in a manner sufficient to give them the ability to recognize where their skills can be best applied in a business.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#242

Post by dkersten »

wes-exp wrote: post #219
dkersten wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know you're joking and this isn't really too relevant to your comment at all, but the 1s and 0s thing that non-techies fixate on is just stupid. Programming (and computers in general) have nothing to do with 1s and 0s and saying stuff like "at the end of the day, its all 1s and 0s" is like saying that at the end of the day banking just comes down to scrap pieces of pressed tree pulp or a bakers job is just about a…

For the record, I was mostly serious. I was half-joking about the Lisp part. This is not really related to your comment, but just to clarify: I'm serious that coding using just 's' doesn't sound that unreasonable. If you're a professional programmer, sure, you know you need more characters than that to be productive. But I wouldn't fault a lay-person, even one who has some knowledge of coding, for believing someone w…

I get that, I meant you're joking in that I don't think you believe that programming or computers really does just boil down to 1s and 0s in a way thats at all relevant to programming - there is, of course, a tiny grain of truth in that, but not one that is IMHO at all important, though most non-techies don't know that and they're told that computers are just 1s and 0s.

I did not at all think you were joking when you asserted this:

Given this fact, I don't consider the idea of coding only with the letter 's' that much of a stretch.

Which I completely agree with.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#243

Post by sevenstar »

ceol wrote: post #228
larrys wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The key was combining knowledge of the business processes with some knowledge of programming." Knowledge of programming wasn't required to save your company 2mm per year. All it would have taken is someone recognizing there was a problem that could be solved by programming. If you did the job with a couple of months of programming knowledge someone could have been easily hired to do this job, right? They just had to…

Knowing that programming could solve a problem requires knowledge of programming. Someone with zero programming experience doesn't look at a problem and say, "Yeah I can write a script to solve that."

The guy below said it before me. I have seen things that could be handled with a good programmer, and I am not one just yet.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#244

Post by mncolinlee »

Jeff's irritation here comes as as ignorance. The PR value alone of the Mayor of NYC learning to program could potentially inspire thousands of new casual coders and hundreds of new programmers. There is nothing wrong with wanting to learn how to create something. Ultimately, many thousands of Americans learn a little bit of plumbing for home improvement projects and they're generally happy with it.

It's no different to learn a little bit of coding for building a dynamic website for your community group, even if it's as simple as using HTML, CSS, and Javascript to customize a Drupal or Wordpress site, for example. In fact, you couldn't pick a more appropriate language than Javascript and markup languages for beginners looking to make something useful. We're not asking them to write linked lists or handle correct use of object inheritance.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#245

Post by bicknergseng »

This makes me so sad. Why does Atwood mistake learning to program with becoming a programmer? I expect this kind of thing from naysayers and ignoramus, but Atwood is a hero in our community. I feel like he's forgetting a /s tag at the bottom or that he's trolling us all.

Next he should tell us to leave math to the mathematicians.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#246

Post by shoham »

Well written piece. Completely true and misunderstood. Of course there was some hyperbole, but as a non-programmer learning to code for the reasons Mr. Atwood gave (problem solving, etc.) I think that while it is an important skill, that it's starting to be annoying how the thing is being sold, in my opinion, because coding is very, very hard for people who don't know how to do it, but it's being made out as life or death, and not that hard, which is not right!

Re: Please don't learn to code

#247

Post by rapind »

sirclueless wrote: post #216
rapind wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I'd actually prefer a pure domain expert who can express their business and ideas well than a half-assed programmer. No offence, but what often ends up happening is you turn into a know-it-all client. "This should only take an hour. You just have to loop over these results and format them...". Finding a technical co-founder is a sales process where you need to prove that it's a good idea and that you've made…

> you need to prove that it's a good idea and that you've made a significant investment yourself ... like thinking through the interface, and as many use cases / stories as you can think of, and describing in detail the problem(s) being solved. That sounds exactly like the skillset of a good software engineer. This whole debate is about the fact that a whole bunch of people don't know how to break down a large proble…

I agree it's a good skill to have in many careers, software engineer included, but it is definitely not the definition of programmer. If you wanted to map this skill to a profession, I'd probably go with Business Analyst being the closest.

Breaking a problem down into solvable parts is something I was taught in math and it was invaluable. I'd written programs before and after that, so I wouldn't say that this technique makes you a programmer. Rather it's an approach you'll need to be a good programmer.

Asking someone non-technical to describe the problem they want to solve in detail is completely within the realm of reason. Non-technical != moron. Knowing how to do this, does not make you a programmer. Likewise, being a programmer doesn't make you good at this.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#248

Post by rapind »

dz13 wrote: post #222
rapind wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I'd actually prefer a pure domain expert who can express their business and ideas well than a half-assed programmer. No offence, but what often ends up happening is you turn into a know-it-all client. "This should only take an hour. You just have to loop over these results and format them...". Finding a technical co-founder is a sales process where you need to prove that it's a good idea and that you've made…

What about knowing enough coding to understand the amount of work that needs to be put in to transform an idea into reality? Also to be able to construct the interface is easier when you know some code. Those are some reasons why I'm investing time to learn programming.

I think the assumption that you will understand the amount of work needed for a given solution is part of the problem. Estimating a project accurately is NOT a skill you're going to pick up by learning a bit of programming.

As a programmer of many years, I still miss-calculate the amount of work required to solve a problem. It's something you get better at over time, but I totally sucked at it when I was starting out as a programmer. It's one of the hardest skills to attain IMO.

I think it's great that more people learn to code. I'm just saying it's not some magic faerie dust that solves all your problems. It's just another piece of the puzzle.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#249

Post by patdennis »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #177
patdennis wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure anyone here could do that. But how many people here are looking for a non technical co-founder? Coders are solving their own problems, and until I can hack together a prototype I don't think I'll be able to draw any attention from real programmers.

"Coders are solving their own problems" , yes many are but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be better served financially by solving someone elses.

Not by me. I can't afford to pay them unless I can raise some money. I don't see how I can raise the money unless I can cobble together a prototype myself... even if just to show that my idea is viable and that I'm serious about it.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#250

Post by stiff »

It is obvious to me how being a skilled reader, a skilled writer, and at least high school level math are fundamental to performing the job of a politician. Or at any job, for that matter. But understanding variables and functions, pointers and recursion? I can't see it.

"Coding" is a simple practical skill, at first glance it seems people should learn it when they have a need for it (even if it is just automation of repetitive tasks) or when for some reason they have a deep interest in it. However, lets not forget that computers from the beginning were intended, among other things, to extend our limited human mental capabilities. There is plenty of very valuable general topics in Computer Science that can be learned well only once you know how to program, otherwise you lack a convenient vehicle for exploring those concepts.

People can keep too little in their heads at once to directly deal with complicated structures or processes, but at the same time enough to be able to write programs to deal with them. Algorithms, graphs, probability are ubiquitous concepts that cut through many fields and that can only be explored in full depth via computer programs, and the applications are broad enough that it is not possible to find a ready made program for each of them. For example, in experiments people repetitively make mistakes even in very simple probabilistic considerations, where coding a Monte Carlo simulation would take maybe 20 minutes for a moderately skilled programmer. Even the Mayor could find some benefit in learning algorithmic thinking, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_path_method

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