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Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

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Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#571
post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't just intel, it was every semi-conductor manufacturer in the valley (hence the inability to find other work). They closed because it was cheaper to build in other countries, or to outsource from contractors who build in other countries (where organized labor doesn't exist). The U.S. lost thousands of high-paying (and tax-paying) labor positions and atrophied the skills that went with them. Intel profited fro…

>They closed because it was cheaper to build in other countries, or to outsource from contractors who build in other countries (where organized labor doesn't exist). The U.S. lost thousands of high-paying (and tax-paying) labor positions and atrophied the skills that went with them. Intel profited from it. How about asking the workers in other countries who benefitted from this transaction if they were happy with the…

> How about asking the workers in other countries who benefitted from this transaction if they were happy with the arrangement?

I'm sure they were happy with the arrangement, they benefitted from it in the short-term. You should speak with Foxconn workers today, though. The story is more nuanced.

> Do only Americans matter?

This is a weird claim to bestow on my original post.

Labor conditions matter. The balance of power of power and profits between labor and capital matters.

I promise you, semiconductors did not move production to ${foreign_country} out of the goodness of their hearts, to better the living conditions of ${foreign_country}'s impoverished underclasses.

They did it because the balance of power (and profits) had shifted towards labor in this country in the 40s, 50s and 60s, and the population of ${foreign_country} was cheaper to exploit.

It's also worth pointing out (again) that a disproportionate of people in manufacturing in California semiconductor industry were 0th or 1st generation immigrants (from the Philippines, Mexico, China and so on) or internal refugees from the Jim Crow South who migrated to California for military work during WW II. These were people who were literally at most 1 generation removed from subsistence farming.

> Maybe you think foreigners are fit only to till dirt fields as subsistence farmers?

Again, a weird claim to stick me with.

Humans working in manufacturing should be free to negotiate living wages, safe and healthy working conditions, reasonable time off and retirement policies, illness/disability insurance, and so on.

The reason U.S. companies prefer "foreigners" (domestically and abroad) is not because foreigners don't deserve these things as much as any other person, it's because they know they can get away with exploiting them for a few decades before they develop class consciousness.

In the last few years, workers in China have been striking to demand what workers in California fought hard for 70-80 years ago.

Entirely coincidentally, Foxconn began "diversifying" its manufacturing capacity into India and other countries. Do you think it's because they want to help uplift people from subsistence farming? :)

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#572
post #480
post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't just intel, it was every semi-conductor manufacturer in the valley (hence the inability to find other work). They closed because it was cheaper to build in other countries, or to outsource from contractors who build in other countries (where organized labor doesn't exist). The U.S. lost thousands of high-paying (and tax-paying) labor positions and atrophied the skills that went with them. Intel profited fro…

> They closed because it was cheaper to build in other countries, or to outsource from contractors who build in other countries (where organized labor doesn't exist). The U.S. lost thousands of high-paying (and tax-paying) labor positions and atrophied the skills that went with them. Intel profited from it. This doesn't make sense, Intel did and still does most of its manufacturing in the US, didn't it? (See: https:/…

Their DoD and Dod-adjacent business (read: high-nanometer) processes are largely in the U.S.

Their consumer and server business (read: low-nm) processes are largely international.

The wikipedia page you linked evinces this statement.

The phrase "most of its manufacturing" is a Simpson's Paradox statement. It's true, but not in a way that's interesting. High-nanometer processes are easier to automate.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#573
post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Venezuela's perpetual political/economic fuck-ups (going on 125 years at this point? [0]), Argentina's recurring currency fuck-ups, some really nasty left-wing vs right-wing spats between countries, and a generally weak rule of law / judiciary (in comparison with executive branches) deserve mentioning too. South America could stand to learn a LOT from ASEAN -- stability = international investment = economic growth =…

The problem is that the “stability” and invesment interventions from the USA has typically come with some rather unpleasant strings attached. I think it’s either patronising or ignorant to suggest that various Latin American countries policy decisions weren’t made with that in mind.

It doesn't have to be US investment!

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#574
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whether we look back in 20 years and think "wow glad we took that hit upfront" is anyone's guess Globalization is breaking down quickly. Chips are crucial to national security and our economy. The supply chain for advanced chips is heavily dependent on East Asia which is a geopolitical powder keg and a demographic time bomb. The only thing more expensive than whatever we end up with is chips unavailable at any pric…

"because East Asia devolves into a war stricken basket case" The past decade of American media has been promoting this new cold war narrative as if there is inevitably going to be a major war with China. If there is war in East Asia then the whole international economic system will collapse, people will be starving in the streets. That's if it's not a nuclear Armageddon and we're left to rubbing two sticks together.…

In the modern world, chips are how you fight wars.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#575
post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They don't want to pay US rates if they can avoid it, and it's possible that their company would be unprofitable if they had to. Ha, ha, ha. No. Let's see, from Wikipedia. 2022 data: - Number of employees: 73,090 - Net income: US$27.67 billion Which gives us: 27.67e9/73090 = 369,407.57 So, just looking at their net income (which already takes into account the salary costs of said employees), they could afford to pa…

Semiconductor manufacturing is very capital intensive so running the company as a nonprofit is a nonstarter. You've presented historical data to counter the of argument that wage/salary growth MAY lead to potential unprofitability solely on the basis of one year's profit numbers. That's literally driving forward looking in the rearview mirror because it says very little about how profitable the company would be if it…

Very capital intensive means operating costs (wages) are a small percentage.

A trailing fab has very few people running the operation. This will be a trailing fab.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#576
post #132

WRT to lack of a skilled workforce, here is an interesting anecdote. I remember back in the late 90's, Intel had to fire most line workers in their FABS, and hire people with Ph.D.'s in solid-state physics. I actually knew one of these people who were fired: She was our housecleaner. And--like the supper-smart garbage man of the Dilbert Cartoons, she was very smart. Smarter than me. I know because she helped me solve…

[flagged]

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#578
post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't just intel, it was every semi-conductor manufacturer in the valley (hence the inability to find other work). They closed because it was cheaper to build in other countries, or to outsource from contractors who build in other countries (where organized labor doesn't exist). The U.S. lost thousands of high-paying (and tax-paying) labor positions and atrophied the skills that went with them. Intel profited fro…

> nice job, if you can get it TSMC is paying around $23/hour to manufacturing technicians in Arizona. They’re also sending people to Taiwan to get trained and apparently it’s brutal enough that most people drop out of the program. Asianometry did a video on this recently: https://youtu.be/Nk-lBok9_TU

As a tangential point of comparison $23 per hour is a common rate for nannies/baby sitters in Atlanta Georgia without a degree or development certificate. One we use is a former teacher who disliked the work.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#579
post #79

Right now one of the biggest blockers in on-shoring semiconductor fab at any kind of reasonable price-point and timescale is the lack of a skilled workforce. This legislation has dual objectives: train new people to get into sophisticated manufacturing AND to build out the actual infrastructure itself. That almost guarantees it won't be the most efficient way to actually get these chips on American soil. Whether we l…

I imagine we’d have that skilled workforce if companies paid enough. I’m a former construction contractor who reinvented myself as a software developer. Each time I run into one of my former peers in the construction industry I hear the same complaints from them. “We can’t hire any good help.” Yet they are still paying the same non living wages that they have for 30 years.

Hope you’ll excuse the somewhat off-topic nature of my comment: I’d be curious in hearing your story how you transitioned into software development from construction - would you mind passing along contact information or reaching out to me? I’m in a similar boat and thinking long and hard about my options!

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Japan cannot get involved unless the US is directly attacked, their constitution and laws governing use of the JSDF are very explicit in forbidding any use other than defending themselves or the US. Japan can change this on a whim with one meeting of the legislature. You think Japan can't change its own laws? >If (when?) Taiwan gets China'd, that by itself cannot serve as a casus belli for Japan. Wrong. I don't know…

> Japan can change this on a whim with one meeting of the legislature. They literally cannot. > You think Japan can't change its own laws? It can't amend the Constitution just with a vote in the Diet; it requires a supermajority in both Houses followed by a popular referendum.

China would attack US bases in Japan and that would trigger whatever needs to be triggered for Japan to enter the war. There’s no way that China would try and invade Taiwan while also not trying to stop the US from intervening.
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