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Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

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Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#551

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> The world is so interconnected and everyone depends on everyone so much that there is basically no point in planning for this scenario There's always a point in planning for a scenario if you think the risk is high enough and there is something you can do to better prepare for it. In this scenario, the ones most impacted immediately will be the ones most dependent of the global economy. If you can't get the basics…

I mean .. if you want to waste a bunch of money and prepare for an unlikely war then it still doesn't make sense to worry about chips. You probably should build fallout shelters and secure things like domestic fertilizer production and the make sure agricultural equipment can be entirely made domestically Even in the most benign case, if China is for whatever reason peacefully cut off from the global economy and we h…

Preparing for supply chain issues during wartime and peacetime look very similar other than defence spending. Simplifying supply chains and reducing dependencies helps whether your concern is war, a pandemic, or economic change.

We put chips in almost everything today. If we can live without chips them so be it, but assuming we'd rather not feel the full impact of have zero chips for whatever reason we'd be smart to start building some level of manufacturing capability at home.

We already saw toilet paper supply chains crumble and all it took was a (potentially over-) reaction to a potential global pandemic. It wasn't a war with China that made it clear we really could do some good with a simplified toilet paper supply chain, it was scientific concern amplified but scared/concerned politicians and herd mentality when the public realized they weren't prepared for such a possible future.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#552

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I don't see how socialism is any different. It is still the state taking from one person to give to another. How is anyone in the same boat with Socialism? Unless your metaphor is that some paddle and some don't, but everyone goes the same speed

>I don't see how socialism is any different. It is still the state taking from one person to give to another. Socialism is when workplaces are owned and managed by the people who work there, rather than private investors. It has nothing to do with taxes, or welfare, or "the state" doing one thing or another -- that is a uniquely American conflation.

AI don't think that's accurate. State Socialism is real.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#553
post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now, the taxpayer has to pay Intel $8.5B to bring back manufacturing capacity to the U.S The tax payer had nothing to do with it. This is yet another example of the government taking our money (or borrowing our future money) and spending it in ways that we never agreed to and had no input on.

> in ways that we never agreed to and had no input on. You don't vote in local, congressional, and presidential elections?

Find me a candidate that had any input on this Intel investment that campaigned on giving billions to Intel to onshore chip manufacturing.

Maybe they do exist, but I don't remember it coming up.

Also to clarify, local elections wouldn't have helped here. Congressional and presidential elections are a different beast, The Machine (reference to the University of Alabama) heavily influences elections and elected officials. I do vote, but I have little faith that such a massive and heavily funded political system allows my vote to count for more than winning a seat. I've been regularly disappointed by those I've voted for when they inevitably ignore or break promises they campaigned on and make decisions that often fly in the face of the very principles they originally claimed to stand for.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan cannot get involved unless the US is directly attacked, their constitution and laws governing use of the JSDF are very explicit in forbidding any use other than defending themselves or the US. If (when?) Taiwan gets China'd, that by itself cannot serve as a casus belli for Japan. I have no intimate knowledge with regards to South Korea's laws and will thus refrain from commenting there.

>Japan cannot get involved unless the US is directly attacked, their constitution and laws governing use of the JSDF are very explicit in forbidding any use other than defending themselves or the US. Japan can change this on a whim with one meeting of the legislature. You think Japan can't change its own laws? >If (when?) Taiwan gets China'd, that by itself cannot serve as a casus belli for Japan. Wrong. I don't know…

> Japan can change this on a whim with one meeting of the legislature.

They literally cannot.

> You think Japan can't change its own laws?

It can't amend the Constitution just with a vote in the Diet; it requires a supermajority in both Houses followed by a popular referendum.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#555
post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in ways that we never agreed to and had no input on. You don't vote in local, congressional, and presidential elections?

If this is Biden's initiative, then the alternative is Trump? I'm sure there could be a technocratic rational non-idealogical third party that would get a bunch of HN voters but does any viable third party actually exist? Fixing our education system is a lot bigger problem then we've ever been able to tackle as a country by popular initiatives.

The fact that Trump and Biden are the two candidates we've been offered is a sign of a much more fundamental, and disappointing, problem.

I don't think anyone would agree that those two are the best candidates this country has to offer, and most people I've talked to about the election feel stuck picking between which one is less bad.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#556
post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now, the taxpayer has to pay Intel $8.5B to bring back manufacturing capacity to the U.S The tax payer had nothing to do with it. This is yet another example of the government taking our money (or borrowing our future money) and spending it in ways that we never agreed to and had no input on.

You sound like you’re agreeing with the statement. What is your syntactic point here? That the taxpayer has nothing to do with the decision making is irrelevant the point you responded to. They still pay for it.

Technically we haven't paid for new spending in tax dollars since Clinton was in the White House, its hard to say taxes pay for something when its paid for with debt.

That said, my point was that the tax payer isn't really paying for it when the tax payer has no say in what is being paid for. If the taxes are collected either under false pretense, or no pretense at all, for what the money will be spent on then the citizen is only responsible for paying the tax bill. The money is the government's at that point, and responsibility for how it is spent at that point stops at their desks.

If the tax payer were truly the one paying for this, we would at minimum have a voice in the program. At best, the government would propose the plan and leave it up to the tax payers to fund it in almost a kick starter type of approach. A simple vote would make more sense IMO, but if we are to pay for it with tax dollars and the government refuses to run a surplus, tax payers (should) have to kick in more money to pay for it.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#557
post #513

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> They don't want to pay US rates if they can avoid it, and it's possible that their company would be unprofitable if they had to. Ha, ha, ha. No. Let's see, from Wikipedia. 2022 data: - Number of employees: 73,090 - Net income: US$27.67 billion Which gives us: 27.67e9/73090 = 369,407.57 So, just looking at their net income (which already takes into account the salary costs of said employees), they could afford to pa…

Semiconductor manufacturing is very capital intensive so running the company as a nonprofit is a nonstarter. You've presented historical data to counter the of argument that wage/salary growth MAY lead to potential unprofitability solely on the basis of one year's profit numbers. That's literally driving forward looking in the rearview mirror because it says very little about how profitable the company would be if it…

Hiding behind "it's complicated" is an over-used excuse to avoid a more critical look at a problem.

A one year point is a crude approximation, but it does illustrate the order of magnitude mismatch between what they could pay their employees vs what they actually pay them, which was the short point being made.

More broadly, TSMC had no problem shelling out $9.9 billion to shareholders that same year (or $123,000+ per employee). So the argument of saving every penny because of the "capital intensive" nature of their business is also out the door.

And complaining about a single year estimate in the case of TSMC is barking up the wrong tree. They've had net incomes in the billions at least since the beginning of the 2000s.

So no, in the case of TSMC, they have no reason to pay wages below what is considered a "living wage" in Phoenix, Arizona.

https://livingwage.mit.edu/metros/38060

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#558
post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Semiconductor manufacturing is very capital intensive so running the company as a nonprofit is a nonstarter. You've presented historical data to counter the of argument that wage/salary growth MAY lead to potential unprofitability solely on the basis of one year's profit numbers. That's literally driving forward looking in the rearview mirror because it says very little about how profitable the company would be if it…

Hiding behind "it's complicated" is an over-used excuse to avoid a more critical look at a problem. A one year point is a crude approximation, but it does illustrate the order of magnitude mismatch between what they could pay their employees vs what they actually pay them, which was the short point being made. More broadly, TSMC had no problem shelling out $9.9 billion to shareholders that same year (or $123,000+ per…

Then TSMC would be paying its Taiwan employees a lot less, the disparity could be a problem somehow.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#559

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> Good reasons that will raise costs for everyone and lead to measurable impacts on the pace of quality of life improvements Do we really need to be stuck on a treadmill of always having to make our lives better? People don't know the word "enough," that's a real problem. There's obvious issues with how current quality of life is distributed, but I'd propose that we don't need to increase QoL with new inventions simp…

Say that to people with cystic fibrosis or muscular dystrophy who are getting real, lifesaving treatments now that were simply not available a few years ago. Never mind that the world is not constant - we need innovation on the climate front if we want to stay in a stable environment that doesn’t require more sophisticated adaptation. Making those worst off better without making everyone else poorer would be much fas…

> Say that to people with cystic fibrosis or muscular dystrophy who are getting real, lifesaving treatments now that were simply not available a few years ago.

Its an unfortunate fact of life that we can't build a utopia with no illness or suffering. We have developed many solutions for different medical conditions over my lifetime and I'm truly happy for those helped. Over the same time, though, we've discovered and named even more. We continue to develop new medications for diseases that didn't exist in text books not long ago, and there's good reason to believe that pharmaceutical companies invent new disease classifications to get fresh funding for a medication they already have on the shelves.

I'm not saying we shouldn't help those in need, only that we can't run down that path forever with a hope that if we can just solve one more condition we'll have it all licked.

> Making those worst off better without making everyone else poorer would be much faster with globalized trade.

I'm not actually sure if this is the worst answer. We frequently hear about the widening wealth gap, fixing that certainly would mean making some poorer.

> Never mind that the world is not constant - we need innovation on the climate front if we want to stay in a stable environment that doesn’t require more sophisticated adaptation.

I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment behind this, I just start from a different point. I think our best chance of helping reverse the problems we cause to the environment is to first remove the worst offenders of what we do today rather than start from innovating and replacing them. I think a big mistake in the green energy movement had been assuming that it would be untenable to reduce total energy use and that we must instead replace all current use and match the current rate of growth in energy consumption.

> I am sorry you have become so skeptical of progress, but I and others will continue working so that a rising tide lifts everyone, including you.

I'm actually not skeptical of progress, I may need to rephrase things if it comes across that way. I just view progress differently than I think many do today. Progress is often talked about as starting with what we have today and adding to it to make tomorrow better, i.e. always intervening more and never questioning how we got here. Put another way, I view progress worth having as progressing towards specific goals whether that means innovating our way out of it or backtracking to find another path. I don't view progress as an incremental approach that must always push ahead without giving time and consideration to removing when we realize pur current path is fundamentally wrong.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#560
post #472
post #455

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i've done better than $23/h making pizza

I just hope you don't loose your love for pizza.

my love for pizza is surprisingly resilient, and the job was athletic enough to generate a healthy appetite.

but yeah, most of my coworkers had a hard time doing it sober

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