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Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

nytimes.com

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Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#511
post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly it blows my mind they were able to give control of one of the most important industries in the world over to a foreign country like that.

>> Honestly it blows my mind they were able to give control of one of the most important industries in the world over to a foreign country like that. The engines of capitalism only look 1 quarter ahead. And the politicians who support them only look up to the next election. Unless you are majority or largely controlled by your founders, who care about building a good legacy.

Market investment is ultimately determined by plausible narrative, and by the national narratives at the broadest level.

That is, if your industry is tuned in to the investment climate, the things being pursued match the things that people are saying "will make the country great", and are backed up by legislation and financing deals.

In the previous era, the US was focused on a deindustrializing narrative: the things that made America great were "clean, high-tech" industry, high graduation rates and four-year degrees, and an outsourced empire that brought sprawling supply chains together "just in time".

The new model has brought back the industry, so it needs an emphasis on concrete job skills, versus academic credentialing. It's in-sourced so the supply chain has started in on a radical shift. It emphasizes new energy sources with few foreign dependencies, moving the geopolitical stance towards isolation. The approach to the national balance sheet also has to change, but precisely how lacks for consensus.

Like with the previous shifts there were some reasons to take the narrative in a certain direction: late 60's America had many environmental concerns, and fell into an energy crunch in the next decade. "Smart bombing" the Middle East to secure oil supplies brought together the national industries towards a common goal, and the money supply got a reset early on with the end of Bretton-Woods, that helped propel the Boomer generation towards homes-and-families participation within the system.

Today we're still putting together the pieces of that narrative, but it's central to the political climate: the old two-party system is focused on exhausted narratives that don't actually excite ordinary people to vote. Therefore the candidates are rushing to put together platforms that rewrite the script and mobilize new demographics.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#512
post #481
post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly it blows my mind they were able to give control of one of the most important industries in the world over to a foreign country like that.

It's amazing to me the number of people ranting at each other about this, when it seems like straight up BS. Intel's current and past manufacturing sites are not in low cost of living locations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_si... There are two exceptions: one in China, one in Malaysia, but that is two out of dozens in the US/EU/Israel.

And even then, Malaysia has a bigger GDP PPP per capita than Chile, Bulgaria, Uruguay, and only slightly behind Greece! Quite a bit above Mexico too! They aren't a low-cost country.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because in Taiwan that's standard compensation for this field, and for that specific project it's TSMC. They don't want to pay US rates if they can avoid it, and it's possible that their company would be unprofitable if they had to.

> They don't want to pay US rates if they can avoid it, and it's possible that their company would be unprofitable if they had to. Ha, ha, ha. No. Let's see, from Wikipedia. 2022 data: - Number of employees: 73,090 - Net income: US$27.67 billion Which gives us: 27.67e9/73090 = 369,407.57 So, just looking at their net income (which already takes into account the salary costs of said employees), they could afford to pa…

Semiconductor manufacturing is very capital intensive so running the company as a nonprofit is a nonstarter.

You've presented historical data to counter the of argument that wage/salary growth MAY lead to potential unprofitability solely on the basis of one year's profit numbers. That's literally driving forward looking in the rearview mirror because it says very little about how profitable the company would be if it raised wages/salaries. At best it may be a first order approximation of how profitable the company would have been in 2022, if it paid people more then. However, even for 2022 the calculation isn't as simple as dividing the profit by the number of employees and keeping the company profitable.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#514
post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nice job, if you can get it TSMC is paying around $23/hour to manufacturing technicians in Arizona. They’re also sending people to Taiwan to get trained and apparently it’s brutal enough that most people drop out of the program. Asianometry did a video on this recently: https://youtu.be/Nk-lBok9_TU

i've done better than $23/h making pizza

You may not have been making pizza where the $23/hr employees were spending their money.

Plus, they can only eat so much pizza. Having more of them switching to pizza making would not necessarily raise their wages, i.e. a glut of pizza makers should depress pizza making wages.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#515
post #472
post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i've done better than $23/h making pizza

I just hope you don't loose your love for pizza.

Or lose your pizza making wages to wafer makers applying their wafer making skills to pizza making.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#516
post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They don't want to pay US rates if they can avoid it, and it's possible that their company would be unprofitable if they had to. Ha, ha, ha. No. Let's see, from Wikipedia. 2022 data: - Number of employees: 73,090 - Net income: US$27.67 billion Which gives us: 27.67e9/73090 = 369,407.57 So, just looking at their net income (which already takes into account the salary costs of said employees), they could afford to pa…

Semiconductor manufacturing is very capital intensive so running the company as a nonprofit is a nonstarter. You've presented historical data to counter the of argument that wage/salary growth MAY lead to potential unprofitability solely on the basis of one year's profit numbers. That's literally driving forward looking in the rearview mirror because it says very little about how profitable the company would be if it…

Ok then perhaps offer a better approximation, let's say 50% of profit instead of the 100% share. That is still a very decent wage and is on top of the existing labour expense which profit has already accounted for

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#517
post #243

I'm a foreigner native to one of the many nations where American influence led to the sale of sate enterprises, free trade, market liberalization, and overall loss of local companies to the hands of USA firms It's wild to see the same thing happen to the USA now, and to see their government be the ones handing out taxpayer money and caring about national sovereignty over liberalization and "market efficiency".

Unfortunately a lot of that influence was done with the exact purpose of handing the markets to the US companies. I am not anti market and there are definitely good arguments in its favor (e.g. a better cheaper product even if imported will allow you to invest the money in something else) but it's a delicate topic and in reality almost no country operates like this.

Also even free market proponents draw the line somewhere. They will always advocate privatising healthcare but never the police or the army. Somehow it's important that keeping people healthy is economical and efficient, but not upholding the law.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#518
post #347
post #132

WRT to lack of a skilled workforce, here is an interesting anecdote. I remember back in the late 90's, Intel had to fire most line workers in their FABS, and hire people with Ph.D.'s in solid-state physics. I actually knew one of these people who were fired: She was our housecleaner. And--like the supper-smart garbage man of the Dilbert Cartoons, she was very smart. Smarter than me. I know because she helped me solve…

It wasn't just intel, it was every semi-conductor manufacturer in the valley (hence the inability to find other work). They closed because it was cheaper to build in other countries, or to outsource from contractors who build in other countries (where organized labor doesn't exist). The U.S. lost thousands of high-paying (and tax-paying) labor positions and atrophied the skills that went with them. Intel profited fro…

> Now, the taxpayer has to pay Intel $8.5B to bring back manufacturing capacity to the U.S

The tax payer had nothing to do with it. This is yet another example of the government taking our money (or borrowing our future money) and spending it in ways that we never agreed to and had no input on.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US led NATO expansion lead to the war in Ukraine, and Europeans are paying the price. As an Eastern European, I cannot thank the US enough for pushing NATO. It makes me feel safe. I'm just sad that they could not get Ukraine into NATO before all this madness started.

The prospect of regional wars or worse makes you feel safe ? Do you think that if Ukraine was not being courted by US that it would've been invaded like that ? Multiple political analysts, US ones included, say that this would not have been the case. Wars are only good for those in power, in both sides. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations...

> The prospect of regional wars or worse makes you feel safe ?

Membership in NATO prevents regional wars, because it increases the risk for Russia. Standing alone, a country like Finland or Poland can respond only with conventional weapons, which they don't have too many considering the scale of Russian war against Ukraine. By attacking a NATO member, Russia risks with a nuclear response from other alliance members up to a global nuclear war.

Russians understand and react to power, and NATO represents that. When a Russian fighter jet intruded Turkish airspace while flying sorties in support of Assad's regime in Syria and got shot down by Turkish air defense, Russian officials came to apologize instead of ramping up the usual "we'll nuke everything!" rhetoric. Demonstrate credible force and they'll backtrack.

> Do you think that if Ukraine was not being courted by US that it would've been invaded like that ?

The premise of your question is upside down. Ukraine was courting the US to get security guarantees such as NATO membership, not vice versa. The notion that Eastern Europe had to be somehow tricked into EU and NATO is deeply misguided. Instead, these have been the main foreign policy goals for most countries in the region, the holy grail.

The alternative for Ukraine was to become an oppressive dictatorship like Belarus has become under Russian influence. That would've meant that Russia would've moved in their armed forces, installed nuclear weapons and prepared to use Ukraine as a staging ground for further invasions westwards - everything they've done in Belarus so far.

Instead of seeing Kyiv under missile attacks, we'd be seeing the same happening 1000 km westwards in Warsaw. How far towards Paris and London do you prefer to let this thing creep before tackling the problem? Until Picadilly Circus?

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#520
post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Semiconductor manufacturing is very capital intensive so running the company as a nonprofit is a nonstarter. You've presented historical data to counter the of argument that wage/salary growth MAY lead to potential unprofitability solely on the basis of one year's profit numbers. That's literally driving forward looking in the rearview mirror because it says very little about how profitable the company would be if it…

Ok then perhaps offer a better approximation, let's say 50% of profit instead of the 100% share. That is still a very decent wage and is on top of the existing labour expense which profit has already accounted for

Companies have absolutely non incentive to do this. TMSC turned that profit in 2022 with wages as-is, why would they spend more on wages if they don't need to?

Don't get me wrong, I wish companies were incentivized to do right by their employees. That's just not how the world works, companies only need to do the bare minimum to get the job done and leave as much profit on the table as possible.

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