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Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

nytimes.com

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Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#571

Post by Jensson »

mlrtime wrote: post #531
yardie wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm middle class and lived in Paris. I had rich friends and poor friends. My rich friends owned flats that occupied entire floors of a building. My poor friends got whatever social housing was available. And my middle class friends rented or bought a place in the suburbs with more space. We owned, a relatively small by American standards 55sqm, 3F, flat in the city center. My middle class friends could also rent the…

No middle class family in America has a family in 600 sq feet. You'd be hard pressed to even find this outside of a few areas in NYC.

People typically move further out so they can afford something larger when they get kids. Since the city is dense you don't have to move very far for prices to drop steeply, unlike sparser cities, so you can still keep your job with a reasonable commute.

I know a lot of people who lived near the center when they were single so they were close to everything, and then moved 15 minutes out when they get kids. Selling those small central apartments give a big boost towards getting a nice home outside the center. Not Paris but the same European layout with dense suburbs, it really isn't that expensive since those dense suburbs are still very close to the city center relative to American sprawl like in silicon valley where you have to drive for an hour to reach a cheap place, in Europe if you drive for an hour you get to the next city so even the cheapest suburbs are much closer than that.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#572

Post by mattzito »

mlrtime wrote: post #519
the_gastropod wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Credentials: Lived in NYC for 10+ years Sirens: valid. But those suckers are usually attached to vehicles People yelling: not often in my experience. And the usual offender when someone is yelling, it's some doofus in a car yelling at some other doofus in a car. Loud music: not often in my experience. And the usual offender when there is loud music, it's some doofus playing loud music in their car. Construction: vali…

I'm not going to argue the point that cars aren't loud they are! However, in Manhattan the city is still very loud with 0 cars. Meaning in the middle of the night in midtown, not a single car, the city itself hums with a constant noise that is not healthy. Witnessed this during covid when I didn't see a car for hours on a typically busy midtown avenue, but the city is still very very loud compared to a suburban setti…

With all respect, “didn’t see a car for hours on a typically busy midtown avenue”, even during peak covid, is bananas if for no other reason than the ambulances were going almost constantly (ymmv based on where you live).

But I distinctly remember watching the odd car here and there and wondering where they were going.

And things were quieter! There was the background noise of machinery and buses and cars but it was a lot quieter than even holiday Sundays.

Credentials: 14 years in semi-rural Texas, 25 years in Manhattan

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#573

Post by mattkrause »

bombcar wrote: post #474
amanaplanacanal wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the best way to make getting from A to B quicker is for A and B to be closer together. Which makes walking or biking more practical and you don’t have to spend as much money on public transit.

A and B being closer works for cars, too. A 15 minute walk is 2 minutes by car, five by bike.

Only to a point, because car trips have more “friction” especially in a city.

For example, you might need to spend some time getting to/from the car or wending your way through a parking structure. You may need to drive a more circuitous route due to one-way streets—-and certainly can’t cut through a park or building. You don’t need fuel/charging or maintenance every trip but it amortizes out to a small delay. And there’s traffic!

Anecdotally, a 15 minute walk (~1 mile) is probably about the break-even point. My spouse and I both went that far yesterday, one in a car and one walking, and yet we both got home at almost exactly the same time.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#574

Post by nkrisc »

Zamiel_Snawley wrote: post #528
twelve40 wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they don't; it's just not practical. You have to be relatively fit and energetic to do it every day, have no chores like kids pickup, have extra time on your hands, the weather has to be perfect - no rain or god forbid snow. This only works for a particular segment of working people out there.

The Dutch beg to differ[0]. Over a third of Dutch people cycle as their most frequent mode of transport. Over a quarter of all trips are on a bike. 49% of primary school students and 75% of secondary school students cycle to school. Cycling has been a national priority for the Dutch, like the automobile has a been a priority for much of the rest of the developed world. With e-bikes, fitness and terrain are less relev…

I’m not biking to work in -17C. I have walked to the bus (including through 50cm of snow in a raging blizzard) and driven in such temperature many times.

A quick search reveals that the average winter temperature in the Netherlands is above freezing, while average summer temperatures hover around 20C. Sounds positively delightful for biking. That’s not the case for much of North America.

Where I come from, generally in the Great Lakes region, the average temperatures range from -1C to 30C during the year. Not great for year-round commuting by bike. Some people do it, sure, but it is truly a commitment.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#575

Post by TwoFerMaggie »

Phil_Latio wrote: post #520
TwoFerMaggie wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with the same logic you could say... The comment I replied to said "it's feeling more like a third world country", I replied "no it's not even close to an actual third world country". I don't see how you could then derive that I meant "therefore it's not important". Are third world countries the only place where things need fixing?

The post you replied to said it is GETTING WORSE. Paris is getting worse in his lifetime, in his expirience. You can't then come along and say > I would argue that the relative freedom of movement forces residents in Europe to confront the inequality in their everyday lives. Imagine you see China today, let's say Shenzhen skyline. 20 years in future you go there and all lights are out, windows are broken and homeless…

I quoted the phrase "it's feeling more like a third world country" verbatim, which is the part I have issue with. I also said "I get the sentiment", meaning that I understand what they were trying to express (that it's getting worse). I don't know what you were disagreeing with though?

> You can't then come along and say

Of course I can. That is also my experience. According to OP many third world countries they visited seem to be handling this better than places like Paris, but imo it's just because they have the power to sweep the problem under the rug. I don't think that is the solution we should aim for.

Oh and btw

> You can't come along and pick some worse example from another place.

I didn't pick them, OP did. I literally would not have replied to OP had they not invoked the "turning to 3rd world country" drivel.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#576

Post by mlrtime »

mattzito wrote: post #572
mlrtime wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to argue the point that cars aren't loud they are! However, in Manhattan the city is still very loud with 0 cars. Meaning in the middle of the night in midtown, not a single car, the city itself hums with a constant noise that is not healthy. Witnessed this during covid when I didn't see a car for hours on a typically busy midtown avenue, but the city is still very very loud compared to a suburban setti…

With all respect, “didn’t see a car for hours on a typically busy midtown avenue”, even during peak covid, is bananas if for no other reason than the ambulances were going almost constantly (ymmv based on where you live). But I distinctly remember watching the odd car here and there and wondering where they were going. And things were quieter! There was the background noise of machinery and buses and cars but it was…

Living in Texas and Manhattan you should aware that we very good at adapting to our surroundings. The relative noise is not comparable between rural Texas and Manhattan.

I agree the city was quieter during covid, and would be quieter without cars. It's ridiculous to debate otherwise.

But a major is vastly noisier without cars than any normal suburb with the rare car passing by a residential street.

NYC will always be loud, cars are not.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#577

Post by GuB-42 »

asimovfan wrote: post #178
mebazaa wrote: post #34

As a Parisian, who is generally angry at the city’s housing policy (build taller!), I find the public housing of the past few years to be a great achievement. In general, public housing sits on the outer edges of Paris, but the city has been agressive in reconverting buildings in posher neighborhoods. It doesn’t really lead to reduced rent (because no additional supply), but it decreases social segregation. That alon…

Building taller means people see the sky less. In my home city that is the case and you definitely dont want that. Where ive been living the last few years, no building is above 3 stories and its wonderful.

For the same density, geometrically, you should see the same amount of sky it you are at the ground floor (or outside), and more if you are on the upper floors.

Here is a low rise area, H represent housing units, _ is the ground

  H_H_H_H_H_H
Now for the same density with high rise buildings

  H   H   H
  H___H___H__
For someone on the ground, between buildings, the field of view occupied by the sky is the same, that's because buildings are twice taller and the distance between buildings is twice longer, which cancel out. Or equivalently, the average apparent size of buildings (how much of your field of view they take) is also the same. Obviously, people higher up have a better view of the sky.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#578

Post by rsynnott »

ljsprague wrote: post #389
rsynnott wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, I mean... Paris was _never_ that fantasy version of Paris, or anything like it? Though arguably it's a lot more like it today than it was, say, a century ago, or two centuries.

I'm going to guess Paris had more actual Frenchmen in it one or two centuries ago.

That would be a definitional matter. About 15% of Paris’s population are non-nationals. This isn’t unusual for a European capital; Dublin is 17% and Berlin is 22%, say. This would have been lower two centuries ago, though what it meant to be a national was arguably a bit different. However, what’s a ‘Frenchman’? Two centuries ago, most of France did not speak French fluently (and perhaps did not speak it at all). Even in World War I, 20% of the Metropolitan French army didn’t speak French functionally. Fluent French would certainly have been more common in Paris than elsewhere, but really you’re looking at a very weak national identity versus today.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#579

Post by bedobi »

closeparen wrote: post #541
mistermann wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even further: extremely affordable technology now exists such that the leaders of our "democracies" could ask the public's opinions on such matters in a wide variety of fine-grained ways, or even better: facilitate a high quality moderated public conversation that actually involves the public on these and other matters. This may even be a requirement for a healthy society. Unfortunately, current styles of "democracy"…

Local democracies on housing questions are extremely consistent the world over: no more people near me. If there absolutely must be more people near me, they better be exactly like me.

exactly! nimbyism is human nature, the irony is that no one appreciate they themselves are the person others don't want around, lollll

if people are given the choice of anything, the answer most of the time will be "no"

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#580

Post by anomaly_ »

jamiek88 wrote: post #495
rastignack wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t worry I’m upper middle class and roughly 75% of my salary goes straight to taxes while everything that’s state provided (schools, hospitals, security, infrastructure) just collapses.

In France? How when the top tax rate is 45%?

Income tax isn't the only tax people pay
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