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People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

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Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#301

These (American) articles on urbanism and what not always make it seems much more insane than it is. I live in the Netherlands, a country usually lauded for it's bicycles and public transport and what not. And let me tell you: We still drive cars. All the time. Even in Amsterdam, our biggest city, 4/10 families still owns their personal car. In the Netherlands as a whole it's 9.5/10 or so. It's about THE MIX of optio…

Where do you get this data from? I've been living in Amsterdam for 5 years now and all of my friends or people that I know of that live somewhat in the city don't have a car... because (1) they can't afford it and (2) they don't need it. Biking infra is so freaking amazing that it makes me want to bike all the time instead of getting the car (even if I had one). Driving around with a car in Amsterdam is just madness.…

This is likely an age thing. I suspect you're without a family? I think what he's getting at is that we cycle everywhere, except when we can't, which matches my experience.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#302

These (American) articles on urbanism and what not always make it seems much more insane than it is. I live in the Netherlands, a country usually lauded for it's bicycles and public transport and what not. And let me tell you: We still drive cars. All the time. Even in Amsterdam, our biggest city, 4/10 families still owns their personal car. In the Netherlands as a whole it's 9.5/10 or so. It's about THE MIX of optio…

Exactly this. Obviously I still need a car, but my day-to-day transport of choice is the bicycle.

I will say this though: You people can't drive! I've seen more car accidents in my few years here than my entire _life_ in England!

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#303
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The title of the article mentions car-free cities. I don't interpret that to mean that a Ford F-150 is fine, do you?

The title may imply this but the article really doesn't. Go to an actual "car-less" area of a city like Brussels and there are delivery vehicles at least in the morning, work vehicles of various kinds, street sweepers, etc. Even at the relatively extreme end of pedestrianized malls, there are still a fair number of vehicles around.

These are being targeted too, at least in the Netherlands. They were given a free ride for a while (pun very much intended) but now trade vans are also coming under the hammer.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#304
post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting your drivers license is also very costly, must be transferred when you move country, in countries like Sweden (where I live) you have to retake your test every 10 years. It also requires a lot of time to do anything with it. It's an administrative document, like a passport. You can say "getting a passport is important" and I'd believe you, but better to get it when you need it rather than pre-emptively, becau…

Chacun à son goût. I'd prefer not to have to rely on other people. Also, if you change your mind learning to drive is a lot harder when you're older.

> I'd prefer not to have to rely on other people.

Same, that’s why I don’t want to depend on the fuel supply chain or the regulation of a car, or the upkeep of the roads.

I know that in certain cities in China they have little lotteries on which cars are allowed to drive each day based on how their license plates start as a way to avoid traffic situations. (they still have traffic situations).

(https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S13619...)

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#305
Well, might be unpopular but... I hate cities, no matter with cars or not: I hate cities because I love efficiency AND evolution.

- creating large buildings, so large aqueducts, that normally have to grab water far away, altering MUCH the natural water distribution cycle for a big radius around cities, so large sewers who push much concentrated pollution (recall: without oxygen we die, with too much oxygen we die as well, in nature "a poison" is something at a poisonous concentration) is not a good thing, yes we spare land, but we consume MUCH more, not much less contrary contrary to common belief, which I suspect is the result of interested propaganda;

- large cities, large buildings are things we can't quickly evolve. There are too much people, to physically near interests to being able to agree and realize something new, and in a changing world, so a changing society being able to evolve is needed;

- large cities often are somewhere because in a far past there was much reasons to have them there, sometimes some reasons are still valid (like local climate, water availability, accessibility, ...) but sometimes are not there anymore and other reasons NOT to be there are much more relevant. Again moving light homes/sheds/compact warehouses it's far easier than moving large complex. Jakarta is the extreme example and the new Nusantara is a good demonstration of the insustainability, similarly "most efficient modern cities" like modern Fordlandia, like Telosa, Arkadag, Prospera, Innopolis, ... are good example of the same: cities are giant factories made to transform citizens into workers, that do not own the factory, do not decide their jobs, that have nothing and mush follow the stream to been able to earn enough to get services, and services costly enough to ensure they keep working at maximum, getting essentially nothing in the end. Trapped in a process they can't really control or direct.

Modern cities can ONLY works with mass transit, private cars in such dense are are an unsustainable nightmare, but modern cities are unsustainable and a nightmare themselves. Like money in modern world is a tool to extract values from most, in very few private cleptocratic hands, cities are a tool to force people working and conform to the few who organize them. I like freedom, so I do not like cities.

If you try to REALLY be curious in the scientific sense, you'll end up simulating costs, raw materials and so on of a fictional city vs a fictional spread area, NOT like USA suburbs but like European Rivieras (meaning work and residential areas intermixed) and the result is that the spread version (not too much spread, not too dense) is CHEAPER and obviously can evolve better. Oh, yes, a multi-storey NEW building is more efficient than a set of NEW homes. Today. In 50 years you can't upgrade the multi-storey now not so new building while you can upgrade/re-create from the ground small homes. So in the long run the initial energy efficiency drop. The bigger structure demand much more raw materials than many little/lighter ones as well. Similarly trains are more efficient than roads, but demand much more to be build and kept up. Going by air demand a lot more energy to go from A to B, but do not demand an road/rail infra between A and B and so on. In the past we have experimented mainframes, than we understand clusters are better, more resilient, easy to evolve and so on. Sure, they are harder to be made and used efficiently, but that's is. Try, for sure and think about dense city life vs sparse life. Think about how much you spend depending where you live, think about how much packaging you use just to eat/drink downtown vs at your own home, how efficient a small food domestic stock can be respect of buy grocery every days and so on. I've done the math and tried myself having left a big city for mountings (of course, in a not that remote area).

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#306

I was back in Taiwan last year after an extended absence. It's pretty amazing how easy it is to get around with a combination of the mass rapid transit (MRT) system and high speed rail (HSR). When I was last there, you still needed to take a bus or taxi from TPE to the city center. Now right from TPE airport, you can be in either Taipei city center in 30 minutes (MRT) or on the other end of the island in short order…

In the early 70's at the behest of airlines Congress passed a law that prevented Airports and State/Local governments from sharing cost of Municipal Rail lines. Which is why in the US if there is a rail connection it's always a separate feeder. I only learned of that a few years ago when congress repealed it.

There is also an unwritten law in the US that the government isn't allowed to make changes that would interfere with an established business charging monopoly rents. Putting a subway stop at an airport would devastate the business of taxi, limo, and parking concessionaires. Also can you imagine if you had a layover at an airport and could get on the subway, go downtown and have dinner, then come back?

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#307

My biggest point on car free cities is that it is supported fervently by the people who would gain massive amounts of power over others if nobody had a car. If you're dependent on public transport, it can be taken away from you as leverage.

Well if your dependent on oil to make your car run, the people who have the power to block oil distribution have a huge leverage. I don't get your argument, we have a huge dependency on the oil distribution infrastructure. A switch in transportation system is a switch in the type of infrastructure, not a freedom vs control thing.

The difference is incentives. The oil company wants my money whereas public transit is ran on hope and well wishes. Winds shift and policy can change at any time

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#308
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a car and I'd love my city to be car free. But some people think they need their car because they think they need to move a lot of stuff regularly, for instance between their home and their parents, and their parents don't leave in a place easily reachable without a car. This stuff can include pets, like cats. I think some of these people could do things differently, but maybe some of these people might…

"But some people think they need their car because they think they need to move a lot of stuff regularly, for instance between their home and their parents, and their parents don't leave in a place easily reachable without a car. This stuff can include pets, like cats. I think some of these people could do things differently, but maybe some of these people might genuinely have these needs" And, precisely, who the f..…

[deleted]

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#309

These (American) articles on urbanism and what not always make it seems much more insane than it is. I live in the Netherlands, a country usually lauded for it's bicycles and public transport and what not. And let me tell you: We still drive cars. All the time. Even in Amsterdam, our biggest city, 4/10 families still owns their personal car. In the Netherlands as a whole it's 9.5/10 or so. It's about THE MIX of optio…

Where do you get this data from? I've been living in Amsterdam for 5 years now and all of my friends or people that I know of that live somewhat in the city don't have a car... because (1) they can't afford it and (2) they don't need it. Biking infra is so freaking amazing that it makes me want to bike all the time instead of getting the car (even if I had one). Driving around with a car in Amsterdam is just madness.…

Most people living in Amsterdam are rich, as the average house costs 500k+.

A car is probably costing 10k/year, so if they can't afford it they aren't average.

For context I've lived here 10 years and very few of my friends have cars, including me. But it's totally a lifestyle choice, as it would be worth it on a personal level.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#310
post #14

I would have expected the article to give some clear pool/metric/statistics about "people hate the idea ... ". There are indeed loud people and big interest groups that oppose car free cities, but I am not sure about "people" in general. Sure, you need means of transport and to be able to live, and you can't change things over night, but if you would ask people "would you prefer to have a supermarket 5 minutes away o…

Good luck walking 5 mins with 6 or 8 bags of shopping, a five year old and a baby in a pushchair. All these arguments for car-free cities are mostly supported by young, single and childfree urbanites.

There are plenty of alternative solutions compared to outright banning cars. Nothing beats telecommute for speed, safety and emissions for example, but even EVs can mitigate air pollution in cities. They also comfortably beat human powered transportation as soon as someone looks into the carbon footprint of agriculture. Efficiency can differ by orders of magnitude.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/ghg-kcal-poore

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