Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

281–290 of 657 posts

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#281

Post by smolder »

pkulak wrote: post #136
FredPret wrote: post #123

We're living through the silicon age and Intel has made a total dog's breakfast of it. Stagnant revenues, falling profits. Both should have been growing geometrically. Just compare these companies: https://valustox.com/INTC https://valustox.com/AMD https://valustox.com/AVGO https://valustox.com/AMAT Even Qualcomm has seen good growth: https://valustox.com/QCOM This is how it's done: https://valustox.com/NVDA EDIT the…

Well, you can chase short term profit and send your designs off to TSMC, or you can own your own foundry. This is exactly why it's in the interest of the US government to ensure that Intel doesn't totally abandon US manufacturing just like AMD did years ago.

Short term profit focus is arguably what led to Intel's engineering decline in the 2010s, despite what you say. An HN comment once recounted how they had spun off engineers into a another company and then merged with it again in a play to avoid pension obligations. That led to at least one frustrated engineer leaving and wishing them "good luck with 10nm". You often see other comments talking about how underpaid these highly educated workers are. Things seem hopeful that with Gelsinger at the helm, they may continue on the right path.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#282

Post by amateuring »

tgma wrote: post #268
Nifty3929 wrote: post #263

$8.5 in corporate welfare, out of a total of $39B that "Biden has to spend." - That's about $100 per person in the US. How about just give us each $100 instead, and we can vote with those Dollars for what we want? Maybe we'd rather invest it in food, clothes, shelter, transportation, etc.

I suppose at least the theory is $100/person invested in chips will collectively benefit us more as we will not lose the strategic advantage in chipmaking. Surgical planned economy to cover the gaps in market economy and tragedy of the commons situations.

planned economies only enrich the planners

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#283

Post by bluGill »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #204
curiousllama wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having seen a few 'high tech' places myself: there's high tech, and then there's _high tech_. Assembling a motherboard is to semiconductor fabs as flying a toy drone is to landing a Boeing 747. One you can learn in an afternoon; the other takes years to learn.

One of the most critical aspects of engineering is making it so advanced high tech things can be manufactured by the least skilled and least number of skilled people possible. Don't confuse that with the workers not being skilled - many are, but just like good software, you want your designs to run well even when executed by the worst hardware.

Actually engineering often means need more skilled workers as the unskilled work was replaced. 1 person running the machine who understands more of the engineering as opposed to 100 with a saw.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#284

Post by adventured »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #210
TremendousJudge wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Globalization is breaking down quickly Is it? I don't know if there's a concrete way of measuring "amount of globalization", but I'd guess that right now we're probably the most globalized we've ever been. "More things that you use are made outside your own country" has only been growing, and with the advent of full remote companies that also includes much more software than before -- it used to be that only huge co…

Global trade as a percentage of global GDP peaked somewhere around 2011 and has been steadily declining. If you look at the US in particular the relative value of imports and exports is down about 30% from the peak 10 years ago. That's a big change for such a short duration

And simultaneously the US has been ploughing massive amounts of capital into domestic manufacturing construction. Money that would have previously been invested into China or elsewhere, is now staying domestic (with a lot of capital also going to eg Mexico).

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#285

Post by aylmao »

Salgat wrote: post #125
34679 wrote: post #68

I feel sorry for any startups looking to innovate in this space. It's hard enough competing against established players without them getting billions in free money. Intel has had the resources to build out fabs in the US for decades. Instead, they've chosen to build elsewhere, and now they're rewarded for it? They recently announced their $20b facility in Ohio is being "put on hold": https://www.tweaktown.com/news/96…

CHIPS isn't a handout; it's the only way to get them to build these expensive fabs domestically in a way that makes economic sense.

As much as I agree, and I really do, this is also a company that mentions they have $7.24 billion available for sock buybacks [1].

Sure, maybe they don't actually make any buybacks. This is what's left from $110.0 billion they approved for stock buybacks in the past, not a quantity that's been approved or seemingly needs to be used this year. They haven't bought back any stock since 2021 [1].

One just wishes they'd invested in fab-building earlier. They've spent $152.05 billion in buybacks since 1990 [1], a fab apparently costs anywhere from $3-20 billion [2]. That's say ~10 potential fabs that instead became just checks for investors.

[1]: https://www.intc.com/stock-info/dividends-and-buybacks

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_fabrication_plan...

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#286

Post by bluGill »

notact wrote: post #275
RobotToaster wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Assembling a motherboard is to semiconductor fabs as flying a toy drone is to landing a Boeing 747. A 747 can pretty much land itself on autopilot.

What are the conditions and steps necessary to engage autopilot during landing? What are the failure conditions, and the steps necessary during a malfunction when autopilot is engaged?

On a clear day with perfect conditions ground control can probably get you on the ground and you walk away safely. The plane may not be safe to fly again, but you walk away. When there is bad weather (common) or other mechanical issues you need a lot more training, and of course if you want the plane to survive to fly again you want some more training.

The only hard part is contacting ground control in the first place. Radio frequencies change all the time.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#288

Post by bluGill »

II2II wrote: post #221
up2isomorphism wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe too much money is exactly the problem? I rarely see people tackling hard problem for money, because it is not an efficient way of making money.

While you could convince me that too much money would attract the wrong type of people, you would be hard pressed to find more competent people by offering less money. (I'm not dismissing that there are other motivations involved, just the ability to grow a talent pool by offering less.)

Once you have a "good life" you start looking for other things than money. I know a few people who have quit a good job they didn't like for one that paid a little less but they liked more. Though there is a limit to how far someone can go down in pay before they don't like the new job because of pay.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#289

Post by asabjorn »

xenadu02 wrote: post #213
asabjorn wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the right response is, e.g. “Do you have any evidence that the CHIPS act require DEI?” Yes, see the relevant sections here: https://x.com/bonchieredstate/status/1766467529151557788?s=4... “Do you have any evidence that DEI distributes outcomes to favored activist identities?” A summary: https://youtu.be/n0fpeiFNWMY?si=eiCnRL0LX8RhOlxI Happy to provide evidence from woke literature if you are interested in eviden…

Those are extremely biased, to put it mildly. Also random YouTube videos are not scientific evidence. DEI has become a new conservative talking point but so far I haven't seen any evidence that such programs do anything to restrict hiring "white and Asian male[s]" as you put it. I've noticed some people complaining about what they imagine DEI means which is just the same old "affirmative action" complaints recycled.…

You are trying to dismiss my claim by making a moral claim about your opponents instead of formulating an argument for why my claim is wrong or an inquiry.

To your claim there is no evidence. Here are some videos of top executives saying DEI enforce hiring & performance outcomes using Marxist oppressor/oppressed hierarchies:

—- CEO of IBM @ArvindKrishna admits to using coercion to fire people and take away their bonuses unless they discriminate in the hiring process.

“You got to move both forward by a percentage that leads to a plus on your bonus," Krishna said about hiring Hispanics, "and by the way if you lose, you lose part of your bonus.” https://x.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1734374423124176944?s=46

—- Carole Huntsman, Former Senior VP at Sanofi Pharma: “One in five hires NEEDS to be a black employee for us to meet our goals” … “One in ten HAS to be a Latinx employee.” https://x.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1737986459007590636?s=46

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#290

Post by bluGill »

TremendousJudge wrote: post #183
nyokodo wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whether we look back in 20 years and think "wow glad we took that hit upfront" is anyone's guess Globalization is breaking down quickly. Chips are crucial to national security and our economy. The supply chain for advanced chips is heavily dependent on East Asia which is a geopolitical powder keg and a demographic time bomb. The only thing more expensive than whatever we end up with is chips unavailable at any pric…

>Globalization is breaking down quickly Is it? I don't know if there's a concrete way of measuring "amount of globalization", but I'd guess that right now we're probably the most globalized we've ever been. "More things that you use are made outside your own country" has only been growing, and with the advent of full remote companies that also includes much more software than before -- it used to be that only huge co…

Ask me in 20 years. There are a lot of worring signs right now that things will get bad, but nobody really knows.

When the Soviet Union broke down 30 years ago the US decided the biggest worries were small countries (Iran in particular), and things like 9/11 proved they were right. However Russia is now attacking Ukraine and many think that countries like Poland or Latvia (both in NATO) are next. China is setting up so that they could take military action to take Taiwan, and other countries in the area. Nobody knows for sure if either of these predictions will come to pass, but there are signs that should worry you.

Post reply on HN