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Study puts fermented foods, not fire, as pivotal moment in human brain growth

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Re: Study puts fermented foods, not fire, as pivotal moment in human brain growth

#191

Post by the_gastropod »

verisimi wrote: post #43
ars wrote: post #9

This is a conjecture, not a study. Sorry if that seems to be nitpicking, but I see too many "studies" like this. A study is supposed to report the truth of something that the author studied. But this is an idea that the author liked and explored, and then wrote up. Maybe we can keep calling these studies, and come up with another term for fact based studies. And not "theory" please, that word in a scientific context…

This study strikes me as promotional material with a science flavour. It helps foster the desire for fermented food, ie its a means to shift premium product off shelves. I fancy some kimchi or kefir myself, having read it! Unfortunately, I think even serious studies have this flaw (of being beholden to funding). The person or group providing the funding need to get a return on their investment. Ie even those more ser…

Are you suggesting the study was funded by an entity that sells fermented foods? The authors of the study stated there were no competing interests.

Re: Study puts fermented foods, not fire, as pivotal moment in human brain growth

#192

Post by no_identd »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #158
HuwFulcher wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plant based "news" is a misnomer unfortunately. They operate as an activist org rather than news. Nothing necessarily wrong with that but they can conveniently leave out facts that don't align with a plant based philosophy.

Did they fund the study? It sounds like they were simply promoting, writing about it? Here are authors, they don't seem affiliated with the OP's "Plant based news" article. Can't really fault an organization from promoting a study that aligns with them. Authors and Affiliations Laboratoire de Psychologie Cognitive, Aix-Marseille Université, Marseille, France Katherine L. Bryant Hungry Heart Farm and Dietary Consultin…

The article found at the URL submitted by OP ( https://plantbasednews.org/news/science/fermented-foods-huma... ) seems like classic blogspam, i.e. regurgitation, of this Harvard Gazette article:

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2024/02/did-fermented...

IMHO HN staff should, as the often do in such cases, update the OP link to point to the Harvard Gazette article.

As for the questioned passage, it appears to originate from the author of the Harvard Gazette article, reading there:

"This hypothesis is supported by the fact that the human large intestine is proportionally smaller than those of other primates, suggesting that we adapted to food that was already broken down by the chemical process of fermentation."

Thankfully, the perspective study itself appears open access:

.https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-023-05517-3

And we can thus check it for addressing the meat consumption hypothesis, and indeed, we find:

"[…]

A smaller colon may reflect a reduction of dependence on fibrous plant material, given that a major function of the colon is to house bacteria that aid in the breakdown of enzyme-resistant carbohydrates to SCFAs. Did a shift to meat-eating, as suggested by Milton, permit this drastic reduction in colon size in the human lineage? Indeed, humans and members of the order Carnivora share a small colon size. However, the gut transit time in Carnivora is much faster than in humans. Although Milton postulates that this difference is due to our evolutionary history as plant eaters96, another explanation is that colon reduction follows from a reduced need to break down fibrous plant material within the digestive tract due increased bioavailability of nutrients before food is consumed—i.e., external fermentation (Fig. 1).

[…]"

As for the affiliations:

I can't find much on the obvious outlier among the author list, albeit I didn't check for very long, only an old interview here which appears partially misleading NOT due to content but due to what seem like incorrect social media references:

https://voyageatl.com/interview/meet-matthew-bagshaw-christi...

And an archive of their website:

https://web.archive.org/web/20190122012150/https://www.hungr...

The work breakdown given at the end of the paper in the contributions section looks like the following:

"K.L.B. and E.E.H. conceived the paper, K.L.B. and E.E.H. compiled data and analysis, K.L.B., E.E.H., and C.H. wrote the manuscript, with E.E.H. focusing on metabolic and nutrition components, E.E.H. on human evolution components, and K.L.B. on fermentation and culture components. All authors contributed to the final editing process."

Hope that clears things up for people arriving later to the comments section, and perhaps offers further avenues for exploration, albeit I'd advise caution as to avoid accidentally creating a tempest in a teapot

Re: Study puts fermented foods, not fire, as pivotal moment in human brain growth

#193

Post by Ensorceled »

giraffe_lady wrote: post #166
Ensorceled wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IIRC another interpretation of the smaller large intestine is that early humans were eating more bioavailable food (i.e. meat) than other primates, which doesn't need to be broken down as much as more fibrous material (seeds, leaves, stalks etc). Can someone more knowledgable than me confirm or deny? Yep, it's also why the Giant Panda needs to eat so much bamboo in a day, they also have a carnivore-like short gastr…

Why is that a stretch? At a warm room temp fermentation is quite noticeable after 18 hours in a lot of raw edible plants. As little as 6-8 for some of them. You don't need a cache, simply carrying leftovers with you for the next morning would be enough. It's not a big stretch that a resource you would have to go alarmingly out of your way to avoid (by destroying edible food after gorging) would come before fire. This…

> Why is that a stretch?

Because you need to do it over generations, so consistently that it effects the species evolution, selecting for a developing brain you can't support without the fermentation.

Similar developments, such as lactose tolerance, required a society that had already domesticated lactating animals.

Re: Study puts fermented foods, not fire, as pivotal moment in human brain growth

#194

Post by giraffe_lady »

penjelly wrote: post #124

fermented foods/beverages are more acidic and therefore should aid with digestion. In ancient Mesopotamia they drank beer with most meals, what if that wasnt only because it was safer than water, but also aided you to digest the foods you did eat, faster?

My understanding is that in those early agricultural mesopotamian societies the lines between beer, bread, and porridge were very blurry by modern standards. They didn't so much drink beer with meals as drink a thick, sludgy beer as meals. And that was valued because the malting step increased the availability of the calories.

They also had more familiar-to-us breads, as well as unfermented cooked grain gruels. Again though which of these things you call bread and which beer is a value judgement. Some of the porridges could be drunk and some of the beers thick enough to eat with a spoon.

Re: Study puts fermented foods, not fire, as pivotal moment in human brain growth

#195

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

ab71e5 wrote: post #127
kristiandupont wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>fizzy enzyme drinks Do you mean kombucha? Kefir?

One that's very easy to make is bread kvass : basically just toasted bread, sugar and some yeast, either sourdough starter or regular bread yeast. It kinda tastes like a weak wheat beer. I assume with some hops it would taste even more like beer.

I love ginger and one easy one is ginger ale. Simply boiled ginger with sugar and after it cools add baker's yeast, bottle and let it ferment a few days. I started out using wine yeasts, but after it occurred to me that it was only going to ferment for 2-3 days (after that the yeast eats all the sugar and you lose a lot of the flavor) so I just started using whatever baking yeast I had on hand.

Deliciously alcoholic.

Re: Study puts fermented foods, not fire, as pivotal moment in human brain growth

#196

Post by dog_boxer72 »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #174
dog_boxer72 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the study had said eating meat was essential for our pre-historic development they probably just wouldn’t publish it. Impartiality is hard.

Sure. But there are plenty of "Carnivore", or "Keto" sites that do not publish studies showing the benefits of fiber or vegetables. It goes both ways, the plant people aren't more biased. If a study comes out saying meat is great, "keto" sites promote it. If a study comes out saying plants are great, "plant" sites promote it. I don't think a site called 'plantbasednews' is hiding their bias.

Yes that’s why I would prefer studies done by some history department which at least theoretically is only biased towards finding out the truth

Re: Study puts fermented foods, not fire, as pivotal moment in human brain growth

#197

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

rolisz wrote: post #48
fbdab103 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must be missing something. That sounds like encasing some rapidly rotting meat inside more rotting meat. A significantly less appealing turducken. It would take some strong convictions to turn multiple meals now (seal + bird) into a future meal that could potentially be stolen by scavengers.

Think about hakarl: icelandic rotten shark. It stinks to high heaven: I'm not kidding, a colleague brought a small sealed cup to the office and opened it. The whole floor (where 80+ people were seated) stank like crazy. Regular shark meat is poisonous. But if you bury it in the sand and leave it for 6 weeks, the toxin decomposes and humans no longer die from it. But it stinks. How hungry must have those Icelanders be…

> Regular shark meat is poisonous

What kind of shark is that? I grew up eating salted shark meat and it was the only kind of fish I'd eat as a kid.

Re: Study puts fermented foods, not fire, as pivotal moment in human brain growth

#198

Post by giraffe_lady »

Ensorceled wrote: post #193
giraffe_lady wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that a stretch? At a warm room temp fermentation is quite noticeable after 18 hours in a lot of raw edible plants. As little as 6-8 for some of them. You don't need a cache, simply carrying leftovers with you for the next morning would be enough. It's not a big stretch that a resource you would have to go alarmingly out of your way to avoid (by destroying edible food after gorging) would come before fire. This…

> Why is that a stretch? Because you need to do it over generations, so consistently that it effects the species evolution, selecting for a developing brain you can't support without the fermentation. Similar developments, such as lactose tolerance, required a society that had already domesticated lactating animals.

Yeah I get that, it still doesn't seem like a big leap to me. Fermentation is just the early curve of the spoilage processes. All you need to exploit it is continued access to food you acquired recently.

Re: Study puts fermented foods, not fire, as pivotal moment in human brain growth

#199

Post by FrustratedMonky »

dog_boxer72 wrote: post #196
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. But there are plenty of "Carnivore", or "Keto" sites that do not publish studies showing the benefits of fiber or vegetables. It goes both ways, the plant people aren't more biased. If a study comes out saying meat is great, "keto" sites promote it. If a study comes out saying plants are great, "plant" sites promote it. I don't think a site called 'plantbasednews' is hiding their bias.

Yes that’s why I would prefer studies done by some history department which at least theoretically is only biased towards finding out the truth

I think the point is, that the study itself was fine, you can't discount it because you don't like the sites that report on it. The site that is 'biased' is reporting on a study that backs up what they want to promote, but that doesn't invalidate the underlying study. They didn't fund this study, and put pressure on skewing the results, they are just writing an article about it.

Re: Study puts fermented foods, not fire, as pivotal moment in human brain growth

#200

Post by verisimi »

the_gastropod wrote: post #191
verisimi wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This study strikes me as promotional material with a science flavour. It helps foster the desire for fermented food, ie its a means to shift premium product off shelves. I fancy some kimchi or kefir myself, having read it! Unfortunately, I think even serious studies have this flaw (of being beholden to funding). The person or group providing the funding need to get a return on their investment. Ie even those more ser…

Are you suggesting the study was funded by an entity that sells fermented foods? The authors of the study stated there were no competing interests.

That is what is declared. But we really don't know who funds the studies, what conditions the money comes with, or will be withdrawn under, whether the conditions are even stated, etc.

However, I see:

> Hungry Heart Farm and Dietary Consulting, Conley, GA, USA

> Christi Hansen

Which doesn't sound like a university.

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