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Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

nytimes.com

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Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#211

Post by stefs »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #164
rsynnott wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can certainly cause light issues, but I'm not sure why it would cause _congestion_?

More people in a smaller area? Congestion doesn't just refer to car traffic Edit: think about crowded grocery stores and restaurants. Think community spaces like parks and libraries being packed all the time. Think about never being able to stop and get a coffee without waiting in a long line. Congestion

paris proper is already one of the densest areas in the world (and definitely in europe). when i lived there i wouldn't have noticed any problems with crowded grocery stores or community spaces compared to the comparatively low-density city i currently live in.

there definitely were a lot more people in the streets, other cities feel deserted in comparison.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#212

Post by bombcar »

Ylpertnodi wrote: post #154
bedobi wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

tell me you're racist without saying "i'm racist"

At first read I was recoiling, but several reads later the poster said nothing racist. What did I miss?

You missed that anything against "illegal migrants" must be racist, at least according to some. There cannot be any other reason.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#213

Post by whywhywhywhy »

smeej wrote: post #169

> The program has allowed Mr. Chaillou and his wife to raise their two boys in the city. But he knows that the future of social housing will always face at least one big challenge: “The problem is that once you get in, you never want to leave.” I think this is the reason so many in the U.S. are skeptical of/resistant to such plans. Why work your butt off for 10 years to get to a place where you can afford a nice dwel…

> American culture doesn't like to think about how much of "success" is down to luck

Think it's more surprising how little of it is down to luck. Even working slightly harder reaps rewards quickly that outweigh the extra work.

It's most just most people are not even putting in the minimum.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#214

Post by jonasdegendt »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #100
bedobi wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think like you but no longer do. A city NEEDS to have people of all ages, backgrounds, income levels etc in it to not die. Yes those people who live in that most central subsidized housing are in some ways winning a lottery ticket, and the real policy is to build a lot more housing as close to the city as possible. But Paris are doing that! AND adding new public transit etc etc. This multifaceted approach i…

Subsidies always have a cost on public finances. In Paris' case, the financial situation is bad and getting worse with a debt on track to reach EUR10 billion. So it seems to me that Paris is borrowing like there is no tomorrow. This usually does not end well.

So I've thought about this before because the city I'm in has received the same critique. I'm in a 200-something thousand population city that's carrying a billion in debt, so about 5K EUR per inhabitant. Given your numbers that's pretty much about the same amount of city debt for each Parisian.

Big number scary, but looking at it on a per citizen basis is it really that big, or unreasonable a number? Assuming that this debt has been spent rationally on say infrastructure, social housing policies, QoL upgrades for xyz?

Yes, good fiscal policy to keep debt stable or reduce in the long term is necessary, but it sure doesn't seem as doom and gloom as people make it out to be.

You should see how much debt some countries are in... It's an order of magnitude more in the extreme cases.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#215

Post by corford »

BoiledCabbage wrote: post #206
jeffbee wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who don't understand market pricing are against rent taxes because they think landlords can pass them through.

And people who don't understand supply and demand think rent taxes are a solution to a lack of housing stock.

Not everyone agrees there's a shortage: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/mar/19/end-of-...

A few choice paras (if people don't read the full article):

"The forthcoming general election is once again likely to be dominated by claims about a housing shortage and a dire need to build more homes. Housebuilding is an article of faith across the political spectrum. The evidence, however, does not support this thinking. Quite the reverse. Over the last 25 years, there has not just been a constant surplus of homes per household, but the ratio has been modestly growing while our living situations have been getting so much worse. In London, as the Conservative Home blog notes, there is a terrible housing crisis “even though its population is roughly the same as it was 70 years ago”, when the city was still extensively bomb-damaged by the second world war."

"The supply issue continues to dominate the discourse despite the US having more homes per capita than at any point in its history, and the UK’s homes-per-capita ratio actually exceeds the US’s."

"In terms of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development countries, the UK has roughly the average number of homes per capita: 468 per 1,000 people in 2019. We have a comparable amount of housing to the Netherlands, Hungary or Canada, and our housing stock far exceeds many more affordable places such as Poland, Slovenia and the Czech Republic."

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#216

Post by vladvasiliu »

smeej wrote: post #169

> The program has allowed Mr. Chaillou and his wife to raise their two boys in the city. But he knows that the future of social housing will always face at least one big challenge: “The problem is that once you get in, you never want to leave.” I think this is the reason so many in the U.S. are skeptical of/resistant to such plans. Why work your butt off for 10 years to get to a place where you can afford a nice dwel…

> And then once you have it, there's even less incentive to try to "move up" from there, because there's now a cliff in front of you. You have to make the whole jump in one go, because if you only take incremental steps, you lose eligibility for your subsidies.

I don't know about other places, but I think this is a major issue in France. Many things stop altogether if you get above a certain limit of income. So many people end up working for minimum wage, because if they got 1 € more, they start "qualifying" for more taxes, lose access to social programs, etc.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#217

Post by ramblenode »

fnord123 wrote: post #193
bezier-curve wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it takes more energy and more carbon emissions to walk a mile than it takes to drive a vehicle a mile Do you have a source for this? Sounds questionable.

It's false. People will not go into suspend mode when not walking; they still burn calories. A very large person would burn about 130 calories walking a mile. i.e. one large latte. And most people who are this large are not at risk of a caloric deficit by burning an extra 130 calories.

I agree that OP's assertion sounds dubious (especially considering the entire supply chain) but calories are a measure of energy, not CO2. You need to know the rate of CO2 emitted per kcal.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#218

Post by Amezarak »

detourdog wrote: post #42
ecshafer wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US also has a per capita GDP 50% higher than Austria ($52,131 vs $76,399). At $52,131 a year per capita GDP, Austria would be neatly in second to last place as the poorest state in the Union, as it would beat Mississippi at $47,190 but be beaten by West Virginia at $53,852. So perhaps the US policy is doing something correctly.

I look at the numbers and think they demonstrate how much more efficient Austria is compared to any US state. I would prefer living in Austria to Mississippi.

Less than 5% of households in Austria have air conditioning, vs 93% in Mississippi. Granted it gets hot and humid in Mississippi, but the average summer highs in Austria is a sometimes-muggy ~27C and it will probably get worse with climate change - heat waves up to 40C have already happened. I'll take the AC and the other conveniences the Americans have, though it would be nice to have the social atmosphere Austria has too. To a large degree, Austrian efficiency is just getting by with less than an American does.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#219

Post by catlikesshrimp »

_3u10 wrote: post #168
mumblemumble wrote: post #33

My understanding is that excise taxation is generally agreed upon as the preferred method for governments to manipulate the market, both because it incurs fewer deadweight losses and because it tends to actually work better. So, what if we get rid of all these complicated rent control and rent freezes and affordable housing schemes, and instead just implement a rent tax, to be paid by the landlord, and make it progre…

Most demand for houses is from people. Most price increases are due to a lack of supply that exceeds population growth. Most lack of supply is caused by it being illegal to build higher / more dense, and a variety of other rules and regulations. Landlords are for the most part capitalizing on these broader market / regulatory trends.

I don't understand the downvotes. I honestly think what that is saying is true in a black and white way.

Grandparent says: "get rid of all these complicated rent control and rent freezes and affordable housing scheme..."

I think this is fertile for discussion. Rent freezes didn't work in Argentina (extreme example), my opinion is they don't work anywhere. But oversupply does reduce prices, as happened with evergrande in China.

IMO interest in not having an oversupply bursting a bubble is precisely what parent is talking about.

Again, in a very absolute way of looking at life.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#220

Post by marsRoverDev »

digging wrote: post #128
rTX5CMRXIfFG wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> build taller As someone who lives in an area with plenty of high-density residential buildings, I can attest that this is a perfect recipe for creating congested cities with such intense light and noise pollution.

Light pollution is relatively easily solved, there's just not much will to do so. Noise pollution is best solved by reducing car-dependency which is a non-starter in most North American cities; I can't speak for Europe but I understand Paris to have undertaken a serious revolution in purging cars within the past decade.

The purging has really picked up pace in the last couple of years, and I think a major highlight will be the upcoming cleansing of Place de la Concorde.
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