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Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

nytimes.com

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Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#51

Post by bko »

bedobi wrote: post #10
bko wrote: post #4

The problem with charging below market prices for anything is that it necessarily leads to a mismatch of supply and demand. So the question is how do you allocate that supply? One way is to have hidden costs. This could range from straight up bribes, to paid consultants to fill out a lot of forms or talk to the right people, to just knowing someone Another way is a lottery which benefits a tiny percentage of people.…

I used to think like you but no longer do. A city NEEDS to have people of all ages, backgrounds, income levels etc in it to not die. Yes those people who live in that most central subsidized housing are in some ways winning a lottery ticket, and the real policy is to build a lot more housing as close to the city as possible. But Paris are doing that! AND adding new public transit etc etc. This multifaceted approach i…

Ok,think of the politician you dislike the most. Now imagine the discretion of "people of all ages backgrounds income levels etc" would fall to his or her purview to decide. Would you still support the system?

We should have a clear objective system of governance that allows even terrible people to oversee it

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#52

Post by bboygravity »

bedobi wrote: post #10
bko wrote: post #4

The problem with charging below market prices for anything is that it necessarily leads to a mismatch of supply and demand. So the question is how do you allocate that supply? One way is to have hidden costs. This could range from straight up bribes, to paid consultants to fill out a lot of forms or talk to the right people, to just knowing someone Another way is a lottery which benefits a tiny percentage of people.…

I used to think like you but no longer do. A city NEEDS to have people of all ages, backgrounds, income levels etc in it to not die. Yes those people who live in that most central subsidized housing are in some ways winning a lottery ticket, and the real policy is to build a lot more housing as close to the city as possible. But Paris are doing that! AND adding new public transit etc etc. This multifaceted approach i…

Why does everybody need to concentrate in huge cities?

If Romans where able to relatively evenly spread their towns and population all over the place in the analogue age, then why aren't we able to do so in the digital age?

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#53

Post by arlort »

nindalf wrote: post #9
bedobi wrote: post #6

The Mayor of Paris has bigger balls any other Mayor except maybe Barcelona ...and they're both women! The confidence to make radical, meaningful changes for the better of the people and tell the opposition to get stuffed... I wish all politicians had that.

> I wish all politicians had that. Even the politicians you disagree with? So for example, AfD in Germany making the radical, meaningful change for the better of the German people by removing non-Germans from Germany ... and telling you to get stuffed ... you'd love that presumably? What you love is this policy. Don't confuse that with the method, which you clearly wouldn't like if the shoe was on the other foot.

Either I missed the part where the article mentioned the policy in paris being unconstitutional or that equivalence is overly-exaggerated at best

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#54

Post by afpx »

wk_end wrote: post #16
afpx wrote: post #3

Is Paris considered a great place to live? I've been there a couple times in the last few years, and it just seemed like every other big western city. (except for the police walking around with assault weapons.)

This is hard for me to imagine. Where in Paris were you? Which big western cities specifically do you feel like it resembled?

Sorry my communication skills aren’t great. It was a genuine question. I spent a total of 14 days there, but I’m an adventurous walker and covered much of the city. My expectations were too high, probably. (Too high expectations lead to disappointment)

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#55

Post by schneems »

bko wrote: post #4

The problem with charging below market prices for anything is that it necessarily leads to a mismatch of supply and demand. So the question is how do you allocate that supply? One way is to have hidden costs. This could range from straight up bribes, to paid consultants to fill out a lot of forms or talk to the right people, to just knowing someone Another way is a lottery which benefits a tiny percentage of people.…

If the goal is to have a diverse economic mix of people to live in a city center, then let the results speak for themselves. If another city has the same goal and can achieve a better result with less resources then that’s worth considering.

The “they haven’t thought this through all the way” mantra you’ve espoused might be true. Also maybe you’ve not thought it all the way through. Maybe that has been tried and doesn’t work well for reasons. For example if you increase the flow of money into a market without increasing supply, prices tend to rise and the wealthier will absorb the rise better than the poorer. As you’ve helpfully pointed out, there are knock-on effects, however those effects don’t just apply to one side.

So that’s why I advocate for aligning and judging success on the goal and comparing like to like.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#56

Post by rafaelero »

bedobi wrote: post #10
bko wrote: post #4

The problem with charging below market prices for anything is that it necessarily leads to a mismatch of supply and demand. So the question is how do you allocate that supply? One way is to have hidden costs. This could range from straight up bribes, to paid consultants to fill out a lot of forms or talk to the right people, to just knowing someone Another way is a lottery which benefits a tiny percentage of people.…

I used to think like you but no longer do. A city NEEDS to have people of all ages, backgrounds, income levels etc in it to not die. Yes those people who live in that most central subsidized housing are in some ways winning a lottery ticket, and the real policy is to build a lot more housing as close to the city as possible. But Paris are doing that! AND adding new public transit etc etc. This multifaceted approach i…

What do you mean cities need it not to die? Would you say Monaco is dead? What about Zurich? Oslo?

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#57

Post by moconnor »

bedobi wrote: post #10
bko wrote: post #4

The problem with charging below market prices for anything is that it necessarily leads to a mismatch of supply and demand. So the question is how do you allocate that supply? One way is to have hidden costs. This could range from straight up bribes, to paid consultants to fill out a lot of forms or talk to the right people, to just knowing someone Another way is a lottery which benefits a tiny percentage of people.…

I used to think like you but no longer do. A city NEEDS to have people of all ages, backgrounds, income levels etc in it to not die. Yes those people who live in that most central subsidized housing are in some ways winning a lottery ticket, and the real policy is to build a lot more housing as close to the city as possible. But Paris are doing that! AND adding new public transit etc etc. This multifaceted approach i…

Interesting, so to put this in market terms, the city is allowing the value that such people add to it to be offset against the cost of their rent. This would mean that cities like Paris choosing to do this is entirely rational and GP's calculation fails to reach this conclusion because it ignores the actual trade that is being made in these cases?

Or to make a clichéd example: being cool and arty isn't particularly rewarded by salaries because there are a limited number of opportunities for this to improve a company's profitability. But it can be rewarded by subsidised rents because people prefer to live in cities with a population of cool and arty people for the non-monetary benefits they bring to that society.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#58

Post by bko »

eclipsetheworld wrote: post #47
bko wrote: post #4

The problem with charging below market prices for anything is that it necessarily leads to a mismatch of supply and demand. So the question is how do you allocate that supply? One way is to have hidden costs. This could range from straight up bribes, to paid consultants to fill out a lot of forms or talk to the right people, to just knowing someone Another way is a lottery which benefits a tiny percentage of people.…

Allocating public housing could be done through an auction system. Bidders would submit offers for annual rent. The surplus, after deducting costs, could then be allocated to buying or building additional housing for this program. Alternatively, it could be used directly to subsidize rent for low-income individuals. In the end, this would solve the allocation problem while maximizing the available public housing. It…

You've literally described a market system.

A developer charges as much as they can for their rental units. If profitable they take that surplus and build new units up until the point that the marginal cost of providing an apartment is equal to the marginal revenue for renting such a unit. This isn't due to benevolence but how you maximize profit. The developer also pays taxes which pays for public services

So yes, I am in favor of this system.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#60

Post by krona »

bedobi wrote: post #10
bko wrote: post #4

The problem with charging below market prices for anything is that it necessarily leads to a mismatch of supply and demand. So the question is how do you allocate that supply? One way is to have hidden costs. This could range from straight up bribes, to paid consultants to fill out a lot of forms or talk to the right people, to just knowing someone Another way is a lottery which benefits a tiny percentage of people.…

I used to think like you but no longer do. A city NEEDS to have people of all ages, backgrounds, income levels etc in it to not die. Yes those people who live in that most central subsidized housing are in some ways winning a lottery ticket, and the real policy is to build a lot more housing as close to the city as possible. But Paris are doing that! AND adding new public transit etc etc. This multifaceted approach i…

> A city NEEDS to have people of all ages, backgrounds, income levels etc in it to not die.

Correct. Therefore, subsidized housing is good and more of it is better? No, it does not follow.

What you say is correct, to a degree. Beyond that, it is incorrect. There are no solutions, only trade-offs.

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