People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one • Hacker News Board

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#151

Post by eropple » Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 1:35 PM UTC

eddieroger wrote: post #30

tejohnso wrote: post #12

Not even sure how you'd start off hating the idea. Less noise, less pollution, shorter commute, cheaper infrastructure, more green, more walking, improved health...I mean...just off the top of my head I'm thinking of tons of advantages. I can't think of a single disadvantage. The only reason I need a car is because the city / neighbourhood is configured around the expectation that everyone has a car.

Because that scenario isn't universal, and while you can't think of a reason, others can. Perhaps someone would rather shop at Costco because they've got a big family and need to buy items in higher quantities. You can't get a Costco in a small city setting, so you need to drive there, and even if you could, shared transit isn't amenable to getting home the types of things you buy at Costco. Or perhaps you wish to ha…

> Or perhaps you wish to have a single family home with a yard, but work for a company with an office presence downtown, and need to take your kid to daycare on the way to work. You could do that on mass transit, but would spend less time if you could plot your own course and just go. Your ideal situation may not need a car, but it's not a universal situation.

These are definitely preferences that exist, yeah. How do you propose we account for the externalities created by executing on these preferences?

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#152

Post by CharlieDigital » Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 1:35 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #84

CharlieDigital wrote: post #8

I was back in Taiwan last year after an extended absence. It's pretty amazing how easy it is to get around with a combination of the mass rapid transit (MRT) system and high speed rail (HSR). When I was last there, you still needed to take a bus or taxi from TPE to the city center. Now right from TPE airport, you can be in either Taipei city center in 30 minutes (MRT) or on the other end of the island in short order…

Do you have any children? I can't imagine car free city is good when you have two or more young children. For one, groceries are a problem as you likely need to stock more food to cook. Sure you can go to the store every other day but that takes a lot of time and is more expensive. Plus you are on a lot tighter schedule. Most people with kids race home to pick up children and don't want to stop by the store and schle…

I have children. 12 and 8, but we were also in Taiwan once earlier when they were 5 and 1.

It's very easy to get around. The MRT stations are nothing like the ones in the US. Bathrooms are incredibly well kept and clean at every station. If anything, I feel like it's easier than pulling strollers in and out of a trunk. That said, the sidewalks are very questionable in many parts of the city once you are off of the main roads so there is some danger for small kids.

But Taiwan may also be somewhat unique in that relatively few folks cook in their daily lives due to the low cost of eating out (really amazing place if you love food). Additionally, markets tend to be quite abundant so you are rarely going very far to get food. Houses tend to have smaller kitchens and smaller refrigerators as well so you don't store as much food as you would here.

The US is somewhat unique because of the high friction of getting food. Perhaps that's why we can have businesses like Instacart and we have such large refrigerators because the friction and cost of transport to get food is so high.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#153

Post by nytesky » Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 1:35 PM UTC

messe wrote: post #138

nytesky wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We lived car free life in our 20s before kids. Groceries were a total PITA, maybe if you order a lot of delivery it’s fine, but we cook every meal and needed at least a granny cart at least once a week. And small grocers nearby had terrible vegetables; there is a lot of variance in supermarket quality. Maybe in NYC they have it figured out, but the trade off is everything cost crazy money. I commuted by bus for this…

Just for contrast. I'm living a car free life in my mid-late 20s at the moment in Denmark, and I rarely ever order delivery. Supermarkets are close enough (I actually live above one, but were that not there, there are still three others within a five minute walk), that I rarely do a "weekly" shop and just buy my groceries when needed, most of which are of decent to high quality. It's not really much of an inconvenien…

Oh I think one big factor is it was a 1 mile walk in 32C degrees and swampy high humidity.

It wasn’t a couple of bags, it was a cart of about 4 bags at least, including a gallon of milk, often including bags of flour, eggs, etc.

https://www.amazon.com/LS-Folding-Shopping-Basket-Capacity/d...

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#154

Post by moberemk » Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 1:36 PM UTC

maxsilver wrote: post #116

safety1st wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived in a number of cities across three continents and I tend to think that the idea of a "car-free" city is a quintessentially North American overreaction to a quintessentially North American problem. Like yes Wired we know that the suburb and the American commute have some serious downsides and the US leaned way too much into this model during a period of high population growth. However it's not like other ap…

It's tricky too, because a lot of "low density suburban wastelands" was already significantly phased out over a decade ago, in a lot of the US anyway. People hear "suburbs" and imagine a single-family home on 1 to 2+ acre lots -- something that looks like this -> https://st2.depositphotos.com/1658611/5485/i/950/depositphot... . And while that definitely still happens, it's really limited to the exurbs in the US these…

My first thought looking at that first "new suburb" photo was: where's the sidewalk? And the second photo has sidewalks but no visible amenities.

Sure they're denser, and townhouses are at least less materials-intensive to build, but I'm curious how this is otherwise an improvement on the old planning model of swathes of detached homes?

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#155

Post by rangestransform » Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 1:36 PM UTC

nrb wrote: post #140

NinjaSaves wrote: post #93

My biggest point on car free cities is that it is supported fervently by the people who would gain massive amounts of power over others if nobody had a car. If you're dependent on public transport, it can be taken away from you as leverage.

As leverage for what? If everyone is using the public transport, wouldn’t “taking it away”, if that were even possible, be a massive self-own for the local and state economy? Also, what about countries using this method with overwhelming success?

The union for the door opener in the middle and glorified AEB at the front of the train has the entire city by the balls

See: London tube strikes and NYC subway drivers blocking one person train operation contractually

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#156

Post by gadders » Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 1:37 PM UTC

vladms wrote: post #14

I would have expected the article to give some clear pool/metric/statistics about "people hate the idea ... ". There are indeed loud people and big interest groups that oppose car free cities, but I am not sure about "people" in general. Sure, you need means of transport and to be able to live, and you can't change things over night, but if you would ask people "would you prefer to have a supermarket 5 minutes away o…

Good luck walking 5 mins with 6 or 8 bags of shopping, a five year old and a baby in a pushchair.

All these arguments for car-free cities are mostly supported by young, single and childfree urbanites.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#157

Post by lucumo » Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 1:37 PM UTC

baq wrote: post #76

lucumo wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but if you would ask people "would you prefer to have a supermarket 5 minutes away or one 20 kilometers away" I doubt anybody would say "no I want only things far to be forced to use a car". For most people it's not about the supermarket. Those are a dime a dozen and all the same. It's easy to provide those in sufficient amounts everywhere. Now try it with jobs. Not any job, but your job. Is it possible to have you…

Yeah the problem is exactly the design of cities which make the car the best solution! The car is both the fastest and the most convenient if the roads are wide and the buildings are sprawled around. If you build the city tightly so it's easy to walk everywhere and everything is nearby, you a) don't need a car and more importantly b) there is no room for cars, this space is recovered for humans. Disclaimer: my househ…

I'm not talking about "everything". I'm talking about jobs. Your job. Is your job so generic that almost everybody in your country can do it? Because that's what you would need for this to be realistic. Everybody living so close to enough jobs of the exact type they desire. Not just a job title, but the industry, the size and type of company, the salary level, the type of people, and a bunch of other things.

And even if it were realistic, you'd have more choice by widening the circle anyway. Get an even better job by driving a bit.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#158

Post by hawski » Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 1:37 PM UTC

JKCalhoun wrote: post #118

Havoc wrote: post #11

Plus car travel is dead time since you’re forced to pay attention to the road at least somewhat. I’d rather have a longer journey that is hands free

I see what you're saying, but long road trips are not that way for me. I am easily lost in my own boredom and thoughts on the road. All my good ideas seem to emerge then. (Perhaps, unfortunately, to a lesser degree I "multitask" when city driving as well.)

I find looking through a window of an S-Bahn to be a superior thought generator.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#159

Post by safety1st » Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 1:37 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #124

maxsilver wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's tricky too, because a lot of "low density suburban wastelands" was already significantly phased out over a decade ago, in a lot of the US anyway. People hear "suburbs" and imagine a single-family home on 1 to 2+ acre lots -- something that looks like this -> https://st2.depositphotos.com/1658611/5485/i/950/depositphot... . And while that definitely still happens, it's really limited to the exurbs in the US these…

This is true, but that model of suburban development still tends to push necessities out of walking or even biking distance. I visited my folks in the Des Moines suburbs while they were out there and it was an hour's walk to almost anything bigger than a corner store. Of which I found, I think, one that was closer than that.

If we go by your parent's photos, my main beef with these neighborhoods is there's no commercial development. There should be (light) commercial development.

I am a big fan of the Asian shophouse. You can open a restaurant or a convenience store or a small clinic or whatever class of local service business isn't going to be too disruptive on the bottom floor of your residential property. You need to own and operate it, it can't be someone from outside the community. People eat, shop and live together and spend more locally. Small businesses get easier to create. Everyone has neighbors again. People walk two blocks down instead of driving 30 minutes to Walmart. Yes I'm stacking multiple social agendas here.

You probably do have to go towards medium density for this to be viable but maybe if you don't you still end up with people taking a lot of 10 minute car rides instead of 30-40 minute ones and then it's still a win in my book.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#160

Post by gadders » Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 1:38 PM UTC

messe wrote: post #138

nytesky wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We lived car free life in our 20s before kids. Groceries were a total PITA, maybe if you order a lot of delivery it’s fine, but we cook every meal and needed at least a granny cart at least once a week. And small grocers nearby had terrible vegetables; there is a lot of variance in supermarket quality. Maybe in NYC they have it figured out, but the trade off is everything cost crazy money. I commuted by bus for this…

Just for contrast. I'm living a car free life in my mid-late 20s at the moment in Denmark, and I rarely ever order delivery. Supermarkets are close enough (I actually live above one, but were that not there, there are still three others within a five minute walk), that I rarely do a "weekly" shop and just buy my groceries when needed, most of which are of decent to high quality. It's not really much of an inconvenien…

How many children do you have?