Live data from Hacker News

People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

wired.com

61–70 of 345 posts

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#61

So, living in one of those cities (AMS) I have a few takes. I'm not ranting, just expressing my frustration: 1. Cars exists because they are more comfortable. I don't care that biking should better, it's not when it rains sideways, it's cold and windy. Biking sucks. I would pay top money to not be in a bike, not be outside getting drenched, and usually do ubering everywhere to the dismay of Dutch people, 2. Cities de…

> 4. Electric bikes are effectively not policed because it's the new thing we need to incentivize, and it becomes immediately super dangerous. I know people that had serious injuries because of crashes. Cars are inherently safer, especially modern SUV like volvos or tesla,

Starting to get interesting in Finland. Not yet bicycles, but scooters with weight over 25kg or speed over 25km/h or 1kw will soon require insurance...

And likely any bike with specs over those will also be a moped and thus require both insurance and registration...

I see no reason why those sort of limitations won't come more prevevalent.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#62
post #49
post #14

I would have expected the article to give some clear pool/metric/statistics about "people hate the idea ... ". There are indeed loud people and big interest groups that oppose car free cities, but I am not sure about "people" in general. Sure, you need means of transport and to be able to live, and you can't change things over night, but if you would ask people "would you prefer to have a supermarket 5 minutes away o…

> but if you would ask people "would you prefer to have a supermarket 5 minutes away or one 20 kilometers away" I doubt anybody would say "no I want only things far to be forced to use a car". For most people it's not about the supermarket. Those are a dime a dozen and all the same. It's easy to provide those in sufficient amounts everywhere. Now try it with jobs. Not any job, but your job. Is it possible to have you…

Isn't the job thing _easier_ if you live in a denser town? If you have more jobs per km² you're less likely to need to move when you switch job.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#63
post #54
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but if you would ask people "would you prefer to have a supermarket 5 minutes away or one 20 kilometers away" I doubt anybody would say "no I want only things far to be forced to use a car". For most people it's not about the supermarket. Those are a dime a dozen and all the same. It's easy to provide those in sufficient amounts everywhere. Now try it with jobs. Not any job, but your job. Is it possible to have you…

Sounds like moving should be made easier.

It's much easier if you rent an apartment and don't own much stuff--which is a trade-off itself.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#64
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not true. 2/3 of Parisians don’t even own a car and Paris is a very average city when it comes safety. Density is also pretty low for one of the biggest European cities. And it’s just a known example, there are a lot of cities way smaller than Paris where it’s easy to live car free.

The French work week is 7 hours so they get an extra hour to fuck around with public transportation a day. So that might help quite a bit. Still I’d be curious how upper middle class folks with kids survive without cars. Maybe that 33% covers the affluent folks with kids tho.

Are you saying here that you think traveling by metro in Paris takes an hour longer than driving would?

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#65

I was back in Taiwan last year after an extended absence. It's pretty amazing how easy it is to get around with a combination of the mass rapid transit (MRT) system and high speed rail (HSR). When I was last there, you still needed to take a bus or taxi from TPE to the city center. Now right from TPE airport, you can be in either Taipei city center in 30 minutes (MRT) or on the other end of the island in short order…

I had the same experience when I first moved out to the Bay Area. You'd think with all the marketing that they would have solved something as simple as mass transit, maybe Jetson's style with personal pneumatic tubes.

Nope, there's barely any transit. Maybe it's okay if you live near a BART station. The best my employer could do was offer a shuttle that also had to sit in traffic for at least 45 minutes each way. I bike to work now and it takes 15 minutes here in Amsterdam.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#66

I don't hate the idea of living in car-free cities. It's cities I hate the idea of living in. Which is why I choose not to live in cities. And is why I need a car. Fuck cities, I hate 'em.

You don't need a car, you want a car. Plenty of people live without cars. Even outside cities.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#67
> In the US, between 50 and 60 percent of the downtowns of many cities are dedicated to parking alone.

This is the part I find the craziest about American cities. You are using some of the most valuable parcels of real estate in your country as parking lots!

Part of the reason seems to be that you guys have too much land anyway, so those parcels aren't that valuable. Because if they really were prime real estate, somebody would have discovered that it's more profitable to move the parking underground and build (apartments|condos|shops|offices) above.

If you insist on wasting land on above-ground parking lots, at least put some solar panels or something similarly useful on top.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#68
post #49
post #14

I would have expected the article to give some clear pool/metric/statistics about "people hate the idea ... ". There are indeed loud people and big interest groups that oppose car free cities, but I am not sure about "people" in general. Sure, you need means of transport and to be able to live, and you can't change things over night, but if you would ask people "would you prefer to have a supermarket 5 minutes away o…

> but if you would ask people "would you prefer to have a supermarket 5 minutes away or one 20 kilometers away" I doubt anybody would say "no I want only things far to be forced to use a car". For most people it's not about the supermarket. Those are a dime a dozen and all the same. It's easy to provide those in sufficient amounts everywhere. Now try it with jobs. Not any job, but your job. Is it possible to have you…

> Is it possible to have your job be 5 minutes from your home. How about in 5 years when your job is underpaid or unfulfilling? Is your next job also 5 minutes away? Or do you now have to move? And 5 years after that, when you're laid off?

Yes.

Further, most people don't live 5 minutes away now, even in car-centric developments. The average commute time has been, for centuries, 30 minutes one-way:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marchetti%27s_constant

* https://archive.is/edypl / https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-08-29/the-commu...

It's just that with increased speeds the distance has gotten longer in recent decades.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#70

I was back in Taiwan last year after an extended absence. It's pretty amazing how easy it is to get around with a combination of the mass rapid transit (MRT) system and high speed rail (HSR). When I was last there, you still needed to take a bus or taxi from TPE to the city center. Now right from TPE airport, you can be in either Taipei city center in 30 minutes (MRT) or on the other end of the island in short order…

I've lived in a number of cities across three continents and I tend to think that the idea of a "car-free" city is a quintessentially North American overreaction to a quintessentially North American problem.

Like yes Wired we know that the suburb and the American commute have some serious downsides and the US leaned way too much into this model during a period of high population growth.

However it's not like other approaches to urban planning have no downsides. I personally like the Asian model of high density and mixed use zoning but here are some realities that come with it: noise, more pollution, more construction, less space, commercial usage pushing up land values etc.

There is no one size fits all so I tend to think most US cities would benefit from just dialing back the size of some of the suburban wastelands out there, keeping density low to medium and re-zoning to allow certain less intrusive types of businesses. One compact urban core, a low to medium density mixed use ring and a suburban fringe perhaps. Yes people are still going to need to cars in this city but a lot of commutes, shopping trips etc. are likely to get shorter.

For somewhere like San Francisco there's probably a great argument for the type of development you see in Taipei or Tokyo where you lean heavily into commuter rail and the train stations become big multi-use complexes and the center(s) of your city. But this is a huge reorganization of people's lives and existing property development that there's going to be a lot of pushback against and it's not all going to be nimbyism.

Post reply on HN