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Java 22 Released

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Re: Java 22 Released

#121

Post by pjmlp »

soulbadguy wrote: post #92
int_19h wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just value types, but also: 1. Pointers to the same (and not just references to objects). 2. Unions (via explicit-layout structs) 3. Function pointers. 4. C-style varargs. To be fair, not all of these have been exposed in C# historically even though CLR had them all along. Most notably, unmanaged function pointers took over 20 years. And since most people look at CLR through the prism of C#, they aren't necessari…

Indeed. The CLR from its inception implemented a lot of features for helping native inter-op. I would guess that msft did make the effort simply because of their large legacy c/c++/win32 code base. It's a shame really that msft stewardship of the .net/clr was so lacking. Of all the modern virtual machine clr us pretty much up there

Because it was yet another all-in, where all future Microsoft software was going to be .NET based, but WinDev/Office never played ball.

We just have to go back in time and see all those Visual Studio.NET shows on surviving documents, or how Ext-VOS (what became .NET) was being done at MSR.

We could have had something like Android, Inferno/Limbo in terms of .NET usage across the Windows layers, but it always bumps into the love for COM and C++, which incendently is how many Longhorn ideas were remade in Vista and continues to this day, using COM instead of .NET.

Re: Java 22 Released

#123

Post by kaba0 »

fngjdflmdflg wrote: post #76
preommr wrote: post #46

It's kind of startling to see how many places still use Java 8, estimated at ~1/3 of projects according to a survey i just googled. And something like half that still use java 11.

Wasn't the whole point of Java never releasing a 2.0 that there would never be breaking changes? Seems like something went very very wrong with Java if the state they are in is that the language refuses to make breaking changes and the developers refuse to take up the supposedly non breaking updates due to breaking changes based on the comments I'm seeing here. So the language never improves as much as it can and the…

There are barely any breaking changes, I could still run a graphical application written by a prof in early 2000s, served on his website as a jar. No other language comes remotely as close to this level of stability.

As for the changes in 8->9, there was a stagnation period in the last year of Sun, and many people overfitted their libs to 8, by e.g. making use of internal APIs made accessible through reflection. This was never a good idea, and all that is happening now is that you have to explicitly state at invocation what kinds of non-future-proof modules you make use of, so that you are made aware of what could potentially change, plus it disincentivizes libraries from accessing these non-public APIs.

Re: Java 22 Released

#124

Post by cryptos »

jimbokun wrote: post #33

Maybe my favorite feature in this release: https://openjdk.org/jeps/463 Finally solves the inscrutable Hello World program! Yes, it's just ergonomics for early beginners. But could be the difference in whether or not someone new to programming sticks with Java or not.

This is nice for beginners, but the confusion is only postponed, because then you'd have to learn why you need to write a class as a container for static methods and that these methods must be static. So, the Java developers created another special case in the language.

Compare that with Kotlin where you have top-level functions, so that `main` is just like any other function.

Re: Java 22 Released

#125

Post by cryptos »

krzyk wrote: post #29

Linkable features https://openjdk.org/projects/jdk/22/ For me personally the most interesting one is JEP461 (Stream Gatherers) https://openjdk.org/jeps/461 This will allow addition of interesting stream operations.

This is indeed nice. However, static extension methods would have made this feature simpler (and more generic).

Re: Java 22 Released

#126

Post by kaba0 »

Nullabillity wrote: post #98
citrin_ru wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Java keeps chasing mistakes like green threads If by green threads you mean virtual threads in JDK 21 could you please elaborate why they are a mistake? I'm not a Java developer but from what I see new concurrency model allows to write much more efficient network software - OS threads are expensive (in terms of RAM/CPU) and to handle many thousands of network connections (C10k problem) you have to either throw a lo…

There were already "user-mode" implementations of asynchronicity on the JVM for years (like Monix, cats-effect, Pekko (fka Akka), etc). Loom has a worse API, is hidden from the user (what's preemptible and what will cause OS thread starvation? who knows!), and effectively ends up infecting the whole JVM with its complexity. Go shares most of those downsides, but as a greenfield project (..heh) there's at least the ex…

User-mode implementations are very easy to get wrong (you might accidentally call a blocking operation where you shouldn’t), and have indecipherable stack traces. How is Loom’s API bad? It literally reuses basically everything you know about Threads, seamlessly.

Also, Java has the luxury that almost no code makes use of FFI, so their impact is minimal.

Re: Java 22 Released

#127

Post by pregnenolone »

blackoil wrote: post #109
sireat wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually a nice feature. This solves the public static void main string args issue. Still if I need JVM then Scala or Kotlin are still preferable over Java. Obligatory Java for the Haters in 100 Seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4-HM_sCvtQ

> Still if I need JVM then Scala or Kotlin are still preferable over Java. That's so 2010. I would avoid Scala like plague. It is a soup of all features imagined and some more. Java is difficult for novice. With Scala even experienced senior devs can look into a snippet and be befuddled. It is designed by academicians who thought clever looking choice is better.

> It is designed by academicians who thought clever looking choice is better.

That's just not true. That's the typelevel ecosystem. The official Scala toolkit mostly includes haoyi libraries which is pretty much Python like Scala.

Re: Java 22 Released

#128

Post by cryptos »

Although I like Kotlin better, I'm really impressed how Oracle continues to improve Java. Some developers think Java is an old, cumbersome language, but it is indeed such a productive language and ecosystem with outstanding quality! Java has quite good support for functional programming, concise and immutable structs (called "records"), pattern matching, string templating, virtual threads, structured concurrency (preview for now), a vast ecosystem with outstanding quality, world class documentation, a fast and robust runtime and so on.

Even after nearly 30 years, Java is still a good choice to start something new (e.g. a startup).

Re: Java 22 Released

#129

Post by pregnenolone »

owlstuffing wrote: post #91
wmfiv wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see Manifold as a huge leap past previous tools Immutables or Lombok. I understand there's a use case where you want to add these language features to an existing code base. But for the most part if you want the language features on the JVM, you should probably just use Scala. That gives you a set of established patterns, best practices, libraries, and a community of users. If you want type safe SQL in particular,…

> just use Scala Scala is a dying language, anyone boarding that ship is making a mistake. Anyhow, I prefer Java supplemented with powerful features Scala doesn't have, such as type-safe SQL. > If you want type safe SQL in particular, you can pry JOOQ out of my cold dead hands. Jooq isn't bad, but it's not SQL, it's Java trying to be SQL. Manifold lets you write type-safe, native _SQL_ of any complexity directly in y…

> powerful features Scala doesn't have, such as type-safe SQL.

What? This site is getting worse by the day.

Re: Java 22 Released

#130

Post by Nullabillity »

kaba0 wrote: post #120
MBCook wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh that’s right. My company didn’t want to pay the insane Oracle fees to keep getting support. I think it wasn’t even a discussion once the saw the number, but that’s basically a rumor. So we have to stick to OpenJDK which means 8 doesn’t receive security updates and is untenable.

Seems like willful incompetence on the company’s part. Just for note, JDK 8 came from the same time as Windows XP . Sure, the attack surface is different, but if they have no plans on moving forward and doesn’t even want to pay for support, then frankly fck them. Then they just surprise pikachu when a bunch of their user data leaks.

Err, what? Windows XP was EOLed a month before JDK 8 was released.
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