Please don't learn to code • Hacker News Board

Re: Please don't learn to code

#51

Post by d4nt » Tue, May 15, 2012, 10:50 AM UTC

gordonguthrie wrote: post #41

d4nt wrote: post #36

I think the whole everyone should learn to code this is right, but a little ahead of its time. A little like saying that peasant farmers in the bronze age should learn to read and write. While 100% literacy is now acknowledge as a good thing it took a while to get here. A farmer these days absolutely needs to read and write. But a bronze age farmer? Not so much. I personally think that one day it will be impossible t…

> current development tools somewhere a kin to Egyptian heiroglyphics. You can do the basic things like... Ah, no. Heiroglyphics is just somewhere between an alphabet and syllabary - there are 60 odd symbols and they match to sounds like 'a', 'ts', 'gh'. The stuff you see in museums is the 'posh' stuff for best, there is a quick writing version of it (also known as heiratic) where the full pictures were made more abs…

I acknowledge you know a lot more about Hieroglyphics than me. But my comments were based on the understanding that it was really the development of an alphabet by the Phoenicians that took writing from an obscure system to something usable by every day people. Maybe this isn't the case?

Also English is widely acknowledged to be a very expressive language compared to, say, Swedish which has a sparser every day vocabulary. I'd be surprised if you told me that the nuance of the finer English texts could be adequately captured in Hieroglyphics.

I agree, Excel is a programming environment. Could do with better version control and debugging though.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#52

Post by mseebach » Tue, May 15, 2012, 10:50 AM UTC

MortenK wrote: post #43

shin_lao wrote: post #14

I don't like this post and what it implies. If tomorrow you want to learn to cook, how would you feel if a master chef told you "No, don't. You'll never be as good as me. If you're hungry, come to my restaurant instead". I think there's nothing wrong with learning a new skill, whoever you are, whatever you do. Learning new skills is what makes us human.

But should it be mandatory for everybody to learn cooking on the same level as reading and writing? Is it such a basic requirement, that we're decreasing our children's chance of success, if we don't teach them cooking (edit: Again, on the same level as reading and writing)? Apart from at least a fundamental ability to use a stove, it is naturally not that crucial of an ability. The argument of the blog post is that…

> we're decreasing our children's chance of success, if we don't teach them cooking?

Yes. Knowing cooking is paramount to feeding yourself and your family cheap, healthy meals.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#53

Post by telent » Tue, May 15, 2012, 10:51 AM UTC

derekerdmann wrote: post #29

shin_lao wrote: post #14

I don't like this post and what it implies. If tomorrow you want to learn to cook, how would you feel if a master chef told you "No, don't. You'll never be as good as me. If you're hungry, come to my restaurant instead". I think there's nothing wrong with learning a new skill, whoever you are, whatever you do. Learning new skills is what makes us human.

Cooking may not be the best analogy. What if everyone started learning to build bridges instead? Sure, the general population might benefit from knowing how bridges work and what loads they can take, but when a bunch of inexperienced, improperly educated bridge-builders start trying to create new ones because it pays well, we end up with dangerous bridges. Jeff's article is trying to point out that while understandin…

Building bridges may not be the best analogy. What if everyone started learning to dance the macarena instead?

Seriously, cooking as an analogy highlights a difference between private recreational practice and public for-pay professional practice. Building bridges, unless you live in a place where everyone has a backyard with a river in it, not so much.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#54

Post by gaius » Tue, May 15, 2012, 10:52 AM UTC

primecommenter wrote: post #3

"Can you explain to me how Michael Bloomberg would be better at his day to day job of leading the largest city in the USA if he woke up one morning as a crack Java coder?" If anything should trickle down, it would be the joy and satisfaction of acquiring a basic competence.

Or maybe he could found a company making trading software, amass a fortune, and get elected mayor of New York City...

Re: Please don't learn to code

#55

Post by angusiguess » Tue, May 15, 2012, 10:55 AM UTC

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

-Robert Heinlein

As much as I believe (and I do) in the importance of technical and mathematical literacy, it's no more important than the perspective that can be gained from, say, learning to knit or beatbox. There are very few skills that don't teach some sort of methodical problem solving, the rest is just domain.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#56

Post by dasil003 » Tue, May 15, 2012, 10:56 AM UTC

mseebach wrote: post #46

That article is so full of strawmen, it's not even funny. The existence of individuals who wouldn't gain much from learning to code does not imply that no one will gain much from learning to code. I have a hunch that the vast majority of regular office workers has at least some portion of their work which can be trivially automated. Knowing how to code maybe allows these workers to go and code up a script - but even…

I read half the article and just had to come here to make the same comment as you. This whole "how would Michael Bloomberg learning to code help him do is job?" is a strawman of the most epic proportions. Of course if you are an executive with a limitless staff to fulfill every possible mundane detail that needs to be taken care of then coding is of no use for you. Hell, even if it is you have people to take care of the coding.

Coding is for the rest of us who don't have our own personal staff. Coding allows anyone to magnify their own productivity. And this idea that non-professionals shouldn't write code is ludicrous. Of course they will write bad code, but it won't be any worse then them taking 100 times as long to do things by hand and probably make harder-to-trace mistakes in the process. It's pointlessly elitist to suggest that code should only be written by professionals; it's like saying you better hire an architect and structural engineer before you build your own doghouse.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#57

Post by sdoering » Tue, May 15, 2012, 10:56 AM UTC

mseebach wrote: post #52

MortenK wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But should it be mandatory for everybody to learn cooking on the same level as reading and writing? Is it such a basic requirement, that we're decreasing our children's chance of success, if we don't teach them cooking (edit: Again, on the same level as reading and writing)? Apart from at least a fundamental ability to use a stove, it is naturally not that crucial of an ability. The argument of the blog post is that…

> we're decreasing our children's chance of success, if we don't teach them cooking? Yes. Knowing cooking is paramount to feeding yourself and your family cheap, healthy meals.

I can only add to this. Because one of the most important skills, after checking my finances, was being able to cook. And knowing, what healthy food is and how to make it, so it stays healthy and(!) tasty.

I might be able to learn a lot of math in school, reading/writing, research (in university), critical thinking (throughout life). But being able to care for my own food, to know, what not to buy (or what to buy) and so on, helped me stay sane and in good shape.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#58

Post by MortenK » Tue, May 15, 2012, 10:58 AM UTC

mseebach wrote: post #52

MortenK wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But should it be mandatory for everybody to learn cooking on the same level as reading and writing? Is it such a basic requirement, that we're decreasing our children's chance of success, if we don't teach them cooking (edit: Again, on the same level as reading and writing)? Apart from at least a fundamental ability to use a stove, it is naturally not that crucial of an ability. The argument of the blog post is that…

> we're decreasing our children's chance of success, if we don't teach them cooking? Yes. Knowing cooking is paramount to feeding yourself and your family cheap, healthy meals.

Yes of course. But do you need to teach kids cooking from first grade until they start college, on the same level as math, reading and writing?

Re: Please don't learn to code

#59

Post by guynamedloren » Tue, May 15, 2012, 11:00 AM UTC

> the mayor of New York City will hopefully spend his time doing the job taxpayers paid him to do instead. According to the Office of the Mayor home page, that means working on absenteeism programs for schools, public transit improvements, the 2013 city budget...

Given the context, this remark is so frivolous I honestly think it may have been made in jest. But just in case it wasn't:

1) Bloomberg has declined the $255,000 salary. He receives $1 per year. This certainly says something about where his priorities lie and how he views his position as the mayor of NYC.

2) Regardless of salary, I have a feeling Bloomberg wouldn't let programming overtake his life and prevent him from fulfilling his responsibilities.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#60

Post by MortenK » Tue, May 15, 2012, 11:05 AM UTC

MortenK wrote: post #43

shin_lao wrote: post #14

I don't like this post and what it implies. If tomorrow you want to learn to cook, how would you feel if a master chef told you "No, don't. You'll never be as good as me. If you're hungry, come to my restaurant instead". I think there's nothing wrong with learning a new skill, whoever you are, whatever you do. Learning new skills is what makes us human.

But should it be mandatory for everybody to learn cooking on the same level as reading and writing? Is it such a basic requirement, that we're decreasing our children's chance of success, if we don't teach them cooking (edit: Again, on the same level as reading and writing)? Apart from at least a fundamental ability to use a stove, it is naturally not that crucial of an ability. The argument of the blog post is that…

I think I might have worded the second paragraph wrong, as it seems a few people have taken it literally and misunderstood my point as being that cooking is a useless skill.

Cooking is of course a good skill to have. So is plumbing, car repair and a lot of other things. But this is entirely besides the point.

The point was this: Is it a necessity for children to be taught [cooking/car repair/plumbing] on the same level as math, reading and writing: From 1st to final grade in school, 10 hours every week? Of course not.

Atwood argues that it is the same with programming. No matter how much we and he love programming, it is not comparable to reading, writing, math, communication and similar.