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Please don't learn to code

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31–40 of 273 posts

Re: Please don't learn to code

#31
post #23

I really, really disagree with Jeff Atwood here. Jeff has interpreted "learn to code" with "become a programmer". They're not the same thing. I don't think that is what this meme is about at all. Programming is logical thinking in practise. Programming is breaking a problem set down, thinking step by step through it, thinking of edge cases, and making it work. There is nothing wrong with Jeff's BASIC example, if that…

I don't understand the distinction you raise in the first paragraph. Coding is programming. Just because everyone can divide doesn't mean everyone is trying to be a mathematician, but I think everyone should (at least have the opportunity to) learn long division. Programming may not be the fourth "R", but maybe "Research" is!

Re: Please don't learn to code

#32
post #23

I really, really disagree with Jeff Atwood here. Jeff has interpreted "learn to code" with "become a programmer". They're not the same thing. I don't think that is what this meme is about at all. Programming is logical thinking in practise. Programming is breaking a problem set down, thinking step by step through it, thinking of edge cases, and making it work. There is nothing wrong with Jeff's BASIC example, if that…

Agree with both sides. The meme of everyone needs to learn code needs context.

Should everyone have an understanding- probably. Should everyone build a public bit of code - probably not.

Coding as a hobby is great but making strategic decisions still requires experts.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#33
post #23

I really, really disagree with Jeff Atwood here. Jeff has interpreted "learn to code" with "become a programmer". They're not the same thing. I don't think that is what this meme is about at all. Programming is logical thinking in practise. Programming is breaking a problem set down, thinking step by step through it, thinking of edge cases, and making it work. There is nothing wrong with Jeff's BASIC example, if that…

I don't understand the distinction you raise in the first paragraph. Coding is programming. Just because everyone can divide doesn't mean everyone is trying to be a mathematician, but I think everyone should (at least have the opportunity to) learn long division. Programming may not be the fourth "R", but maybe "Research" is!

When I said programmer, I meant a professional programmer - as an occupation.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#34
> the mayor of New York City will hopefully spend his time doing the job taxpayers paid him to do instead. According to the Office of the Mayor home page, that means working on absenteeism programs for schools, public transit improvements, the 2013 city budget, and … do I really need to go on?

Being a Mayor means it is his job, not his life, outside of work it's not our business to tell him he's wasting time regardless of whether he's learning to code or reading the first Harry Potter book over and over again.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#35
The problem is that coding is still too hard. It should be easier to automate things, and then even the major of NY could benefit. Coding should be as easy as using a computer.

In fact I have argued that installing apps is kind of like coding for noobs. It is modding their world in a very primitive way, by installing functions on their phone. If it was easier to fine tune those functions, it would be a net win.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#36
I think the whole everyone should learn to code this is right, but a little ahead of its time. A little like saying that peasant farmers in the bronze age should learn to read and write. While 100% literacy is now acknowledge as a good thing it took a while to get here. A farmer these days absolutely needs to read and write. But a bronze age farmer? Not so much.

I personally think that one day it will be impossible to function in society without the ability to manipulate and query data. To use Jeff's example, as Mayor of a large city there must be mountains of data that might be relevant to every single decision that is made, and the mayors who can query and gain insight into that data quickly (without having to write a spec and get someone else to do it for them) will eventually be more successful, to the point where all mayors will be expected to be able to manipulate data.

There are a number of things that need to happen before that though:

Firstly, the tools need to get a LOT better. I put our current development tools somewhere a kin to Egyptian hieroglyphics. You can do basic things like record the births and deaths of kings, but could Shakespeare have written what he did in hieroglyphics? I'm guessing not. (Although I bet someone somewhere has done a translation!)

Next, this vision of the future is based on the amount of data in the world getting a LOT bigger. To the point where intuition or past experience simply can't compete with the people who are mining the data.

Politics will probably be one of the last professions to convert, the cultural change will take a while to work though. The first professions will be the kind of things where Excel is used heavily at the moment (you could argue that Excel is a programming environment). Professions like Marketing, Manufacturing (which will become predominately robot driven at some point) and Medicine (which will become heavily influenced by generic programming) will probably be early adopters. But one day, I think "programming" in the sense of giving a "machine" a series of logical instructions to follow, will be universal and it will simply be impossible to live a normal life without that skill.

EDIT: Fixed ironic typo ;)

Re: Please don't learn to code

#37
post #34

> the mayor of New York City will hopefully spend his time doing the job taxpayers paid him to do instead. According to the Office of the Mayor home page, that means working on absenteeism programs for schools, public transit improvements, the 2013 city budget, and … do I really need to go on? Being a Mayor means it is his job, not his life, outside of work it's not our business to tell him he's wasting time regardle…

Not to mention the fact that the tax payers don't pay Bloomberg a salary to do his job, he does it for free.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#38

For all X, it is always better (toknow X) than (not (toknow X)). There are innumerably unpredictable circumstances that may arise in which it will prove useful. Bureaucrats in general could all profit from some minimal understanding of programming if only to stop them saying things like: 'the computer says: no!'

Except in cases where a little knowledge of the subject is more dangerous than no knowledge.

(But I disagree with the post, teaching people to program would be a net gain I think but I'm sure most people won't bother so no danger of ever finding out.)

Re: Please don't learn to code

#39
post #23

I really, really disagree with Jeff Atwood here. Jeff has interpreted "learn to code" with "become a programmer". They're not the same thing. I don't think that is what this meme is about at all. Programming is logical thinking in practise. Programming is breaking a problem set down, thinking step by step through it, thinking of edge cases, and making it work. There is nothing wrong with Jeff's BASIC example, if that…

Well said. I wholly agree with "learn to code" != "become a programmer".

Learning programming has helped me in many other walks of life. It has taught me that every problem can be tackled with a systematic approach, given enough time. I like to think that helps me to notice things that would have gone unnoticed without. More than anything else, it is this approach, enforced by programming, for which I hold gratitude. Critical thinking.

Re: Please don't learn to code

#40
So I wrote a piece advocating why everyone should learn to code:

http://reviewsindepth.com/2011/04/why-everyone-should-learn-...

I don't think Jeff's piece undermines any of the reasons I put forward there.

Going through his points one by one.

It's easy to agree that you should ideally write no code - but of course the ideal assumes that all the provided interfaces in the world provide you with everything you desire, need. The point is that the world is such that most of the time this is not the case.

It does not assume that coding is the goal. It assumes that there are always various goals that have not been met by existing interfaces or infrastructure. (i.e. that the ideal in the first point can never be achieved in reality)

It doesn't necessarily put the method before the problem. It's just assuming that the many of the problems faced by a majority of people (or everyone) in western society can be solved with code.

His next point speak to professionalism in coding. In large software projects - you absolutely need professionalism. But many problems people face don't require large software projects to solve. I give an example in the linked piece above of a problem I solved with code that certainly didn't need a large software project.

His final point - it does not imply this thin membrane between professionalism and being an amateur coder. In fact - I advocate the complete opposite, yet still think everyone should code. I'm not sure why he thinks it does imply this - so its hard to argue against him here. To me it's prima facie not the case.

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