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Why are there suddenly so many car washes?

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Re: Why are there suddenly so many car washes?

#581
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow the idea of perpetually paying property taxes and land value taxes doesn't sound appealing to me, especially since businesses already pay taxes. I don't understand the argument of designing a system to hurt a specific business type such as low value businesses. If there's a loophole such as lack of sales tax for car washes, fix that, but let the playing field remain even. If desirable high value businesses ar…

>Somehow the idea of perpetually paying property taxes and land value taxes doesn't sound appealing to me Eternal wealth to those lucky enough to have been born and bought in the past or born to families who bought in the past sounds plenty dystopian to me; pay up regularly or let someone else who will contribute to society step in.

What eternal wealth would a guy in a hut in the middle of a land-locked forest have, with no infrastructure, and no community? Why is he forced to provide anything beyond self-sustainability?

> pay up regularly or let someone else who will contribute to society [raze your forest to sell wood chips].

Forcing mountain men off their land to work in the factories, sounds plenty dystopian to me. The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race…

Re: Why are there suddenly so many car washes?

#582
post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Somehow the idea of perpetually paying property taxes and land value taxes doesn't sound appealing to me, especially since businesses already pay taxes. And it doesn't sound appealing to me, as an individual. I don't want to feel like a peasant constantly paying a tax to the monarch/state: so at very least the first property an individual owns should be tax free (not annual land value tax / property tax). I happen…

> I don't want to feel like a peasant constantly paying a tax to the monarch/state If you're not paying your dues, why do you think the state should have an obligation to protect you and your property?

The state has ruled time and again; It has no duty to protect you and your property.

Warren v. District of Columbia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

Castle Rock v. Gonzales http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales

Davidson v. City of Westminster , 32 Cal.3d 197 http://scocal.stanford.edu/opinion/davidson-v-city-westminst...

Hartzler v. City of San Jose (1975) , 46 Cal.App.3d 6 http://www.lawlink.com/research/caselevel3/51629

Linda Riss v. City of New York http://www2.newpaltz.edu/%7Ezuckerpr/cases/riss.htm

DeShaney v. Winnebago County http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeShaney_v._Winnebago_County

Susman v. City of Los Angeles269 Cal. App. 2d 803 http://law.justia.com/cases/california/calapp2d/269/803.html

South v. Maryland, 59 U.S. (How.) 396, 15 L.Ed.433 (1856) http://www.endtimesreport.com/NO_AFFIRMATIVE_DUTY.htm

…and many more! https://archive.is/MbIeH

Re: Why are there suddenly so many car washes?

#583
post #492
post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that it favors the land owners. Most of us presumably value our life over our worldly possessions.

By favor I simply mean the property tax level required to support a trillion dollar defense + VA + courts + police etc budget is larger than the current property tax rate. And without that type of spending owning the deed to some property would be pointless. Obviously we could lower defense spending but that's a separate question than simply the justification for property taxes.

So would you expect this new property tax to be a federal tax, as opposed to most today that are used to fund local governments?

Re: Why are there suddenly so many car washes?

#584

1) Who is spending $20 a month on car washes? 2) If the problem is that subscription users aren’t paying local sales taxes, why not charge property taxes? (or, Land Value Tax!)

I was when I lived in MN. I had a subscription for unlimited car washes (I did the "medium" level). When I commuted in winter I would wash my car at least once a week, sometimes twice. Summer, maybe once every other week. It just took two washes to break even, 3 was coming out ahead. There were times when it was really dirty that I would go through twice back to back.

There was hardly a time there wasn't a short line to go through and many had the subscriptions, you can tell because the attendant just guides you into the track and there was an RFID tag on your windshield and if the attendant didn't have to take payment you knew they had the subscription.

Re: Why are there suddenly so many car washes?

#585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of these scenarios are a gamble and not guaranteed. On the social side: the gamble is that social growth will outpace the increased economic pressure. Meaning, you need the new vertical growth to create opportunities faster than it increases prices further in the area. A land tax alone wouldn't pull people out of poverty, create affordable housing, or open up public school. Those are all just potential avenues f…

> On the social side: the gamble is that social growth will outpace the increased economic pressure. Meaning, you need the new vertical growth to create opportunities faster than it increases prices further in the area. A land tax alone wouldn't pull people out of poverty, create affordable housing, or open up public school. Those are all just potential avenues for the city to develop, not guarantees. There are a lot…

Economic pressure is a pretty common term, I'm a little surprised you would be diving so deep into potential economic impacts of a new tax without knowing the term. Here's a good definition and explanation [1].

Price increases are possible here because it all depends on what is built on the currently vacant lots, or on lots that are cleared when the old buildings no longer make economic sense with the new tax. The example given early in this thread was a car wash versus a new biotech facility. A new, expensive biotech facility wouldn't help with affordable house at all but it would bring in more individuals with higher salaries. Prices could also go up if new construction further increases the city's density or population - more people means more demand and higher prices unless supply increases faster.

Economies of scale aren't a given simply because a new land tax would change building incentives. Economies are much to complex for that and can't be boiled down to a single lever or knob. Changing one thing can have a much different outcome than predicted.

I'm not sure why you would expect a land value tax to have a deflationary impact on housing. There's no direct link between a land value tax and an increase in affordable housing, meaning we can't assume there will be more affordable housing created. What we do know is that land owners now have a new tax to pay, and if you are renting out property on the land you will pass a large portion of the new tax onto them in the form of rent increases. This is literally a concept covered in the intro to economics course I took 15 years ago, if you aren't aware of how businesses handle new taxes I'd recommend you read up on it before pushing too strongly for a new tax.

[1] https://www.smartcapitalmind.com/what-is-economic-pressure.h...

Re: Why are there suddenly so many car washes?

#586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you see a solution here of higher property taxes, is it focused on the raw land value or on the value of "improvements?" I've never been a fan of taxing the value of raw land, mainly because it creates incentives for destroying natural land and extracting as much value as possible from the space. Taxing structures based on the expected economic value can make sense, though even then if its a business there are m…

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, but your comment reminded me of this tax loophole, which fills me with rage everytime I see a new self-storage style business being "constructed." https://boxwell.co/section-179-tax-benefit-for-relocatable-s... >Relocatable storage units are portable and moveable. Therefore, they can be classified as equipment instead of as a building or permanent structure. Not only does thi…

When houses this are you enraged at the storage facility or the legislators and tax authorities?

There are so many loopholes and games that can be played with US taxes that I've gotten to the point where I can't blame anyone for trying. We need a much simpler tax code that can be easily understood and enforced IMO.

In other words, with taxes I ended up landing on "don't hate the player, hate the game"

Re: Why are there suddenly so many car washes?

#587
post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the proposal is that people should never be able to use the land they own for their own purposes without the threat of being dispossessed because strangers are willing to pay more for it, even if they don't want to sell? That sounds like a horrible situation, and it seems clear why real-world tax systems don't take this approach to its ultimate conclusion. There's also something very objectionable about attempting…

At the risk of feeding a troll... no, that is not the proposal. The proposal is to make it economically unviable to do socially suboptimal things with common resources. The underlying principle is that land - including natural resources as a whole - is finite. It's a common good owned by humanity as a whole; or, failing that, at least in common by the nation-state in which it falls. Allowing individuals to hoard thos…

> The proposal is to make it economically unviable to do socially suboptimal things with common resources.

Well, the resources in question aren't "common resources", they're economically rival resources that already belong to other people.

So the argument is to artificially constrain people from using their own particular resources to do "socially suboptimal" things, but in this case what's being posited as "socially suboptimal" is actually just a normative "ought" opinion posited by a specific faction in opposition to the observable "is" manifested by society itself.

Dress it up in whatever language you like, but the underlying position remains "I want to force people to conform to my preferences at the expense of their own".

> The underlying principle is that land - including natural resources as a whole - is finite. It's a common good owned by humanity as a whole;

That's a very poor principle. Every question in economics and political philosophy deals with the complex interactions of different subsets of "humanity as a whole", so treating humanity as a whole as a singular agent is outside the realm of any kind of useful analysis.

And the concept of ownership is something we apply to economically rival goods -- including and especially land -- precisely because possession and use of rival goods are inherently exclusive. Ownership must be exercised by some narrowly construed party at the exclusion of others, and all of our models of property rights serve the purpose of resolving competing claims to the same resources precisely because ownership cannot be aggregated.

The relation of high-level abstractions you're invoking here might make for a nice slogan, but "everything aggregated into a singular unit is owned by everyone aggregated into a singular unit" is completely useless as a model of reality.

> Allowing individuals to hoard those finite resources is bad for society.

Individuals, in aggregate, are society, and what's good or bad for society is entirely a function of what is good or bad for the individuals who constitute it.

When different individuals have conflicts of interest or divergences in values that bring them into dispute, we need solutions for resolving those disputes in a manner that is maximally favorable to all sides, and which assiduously respect the rights of all individuals involved. Property rights are an important example of doing exactly that.

The moment we adopt a "winner take all" model for resolving social conflict, we raise the stakes of participating in society in the first place, and and up on the road to social dissolution. As high minded as the abstractions you're invoking seem to be on the surface, the practical reality of your proposal is that the state will act as a universal landlord, and put control over how everyone is using their own property in the hands of whichever faction is politically dominant, absolutely leading to a "winner take all" scenario where those most skilled at politics can usurp the property rights of everyone else. It's a recipe for disaster.

> Under a land-value tax system, individuals can do whatever they want, but they're appropriately charged for their negative externalities.

We already have a system of legal liability for holding people responsible for their negative externalities, and it works very appropriately, by making people who cause negative externalities financially responsible to the specific parties who those externalities have harmed.

The approach you are proposing would be universally preemptive, rather than remediative, charging people across the board regardless of what externalities they have or have not caused. And it would put the proceeds of those charges not in the hands of the people who were harmed by the externalities, but rather in the hands of a separate organization entirely, one which may or may not have an incentive to apply those funds toward the remediation of the externality, but might have entirely unrelated purposes that it diverts those funds to.

> Market forces alone are incapable of correctly pricing deals involving common goods, because most of the people who are implicitly participating in the transaction

There are precious few genuinely common goods to which markets are applicable in the first place. Markets conduct trade in scarce and rival goods, but common goods are definitionally non-rival hoods, for which a single unit of production satisfies every disparate instance of consumption simultaneously. A classic example is military defense, where a single army deters aggression against the country as a whole, and does not produce distinct units of defense consumed individually by each resident.

We already typically rely on non-market solutions for common goods, e.g. having them provided directly by political states and funded via taxation. There are lots of problems with this, especially the principal-agent problem, and many people are trying to come up with ways to make pluralistic markets applicable to these goods by disaggregating them. But here you are proposing to take things that aren't common goods, like land, and make them subject to the same failure modalities we experience with common goods.

> In a democracy, the state is how the public as a whole imposes its collective will;

No, this is absolutely false, and is indeed an extremely dangerous idea that twists democracy into a kind of quasi-totalitarian system. Democracy is a tool for ensuring that the political state is accountable to the public generally, as a means of preventing abuses of power. It functions as a brake pedal, not as a gas pedal.

A large and pluralistic society dos not have any sort of singular "collective will" in the first place -- societies are aggregations of lots of disparate individuals, who often organize into subcultures and factions who have very different goals and interests -- and the purpose of law and politics is to mediate between them in a way that enables each to maximally pursue their own particular will within their own particular boundaries without conflicting with each other.

Democratic processes are meant to ensure that that meditative process remains honest and accountable, not to attempt to replace it with some pretended distillation of everyone's diverse values into a single set of principles -- the latter is logically impossible, and attempts to do this invariably result in a single faction imposing its values forcefully onto everyone else.

But I will note that the closest thing that resembles the "collective will" of society as a whole are the patterns that emerge from the interactions of all individuals, communities, and organizations, at all levels of scale and complexity. The behavior of the state, one particular artificial institution within the vast complexity of society, is absolutely not a reliable indicator of the nature of the whole, no matter how democratic its processes may be.

Re: Why are there suddenly so many car washes?

#588
post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Never mind that many real estate tax regimes already include a component based on the land value. It's strange, because almost all property tax systems in the US are based on ad valorem taxation. I'm personally opposed to the concept as a matter of fundamental principle. Society can't function if people's property rights are constantly under the threat of being usurped by someone whose intended uses might generate…

> Georgism is fundamentally flawed in its precepts, and would result in a rent-seeking political state acting as a monopolist landlord. Why would a democratic society tax itself needlessly? LVT is by definition limited to a certain proportion. The entire thesis of my OP is that the last 200 years of protections of property rights are now quickly leading to a "rent-seeking state by a plurality of various oligarchies".…

> Why would a democratic society tax itself needlessly? LVT is by definition limited to a certain proportion.

There is no such thing as a democratic society, only democratic states, where the state is a single institution within society, not some distillation of the whole. Political states are administered by particular fallible humans, operate under a complex of incentives that is not necessarily aligned with the interests of the surrounding society, and operate under processes that are often subject to manipulation by factions with ulterior motives.

The examples of democratic political states acting in ways that are either unrelated to or even antagonistic to the presumed interests of the societies they operate within are endless, and arguably much more prevalent than examples of markets producing outcomes that are not aligned with the interests of their particpants.

> The entire thesis of my OP is that the last 200 years of protections of property rights are now quickly leading to a "rent-seeking state by a plurality of various oligarchies".

I'd attribute that outcome to the last 200 years of erosion of property rights, largely by well-intentioned people making severe mistakes on account of failing to reconcile theoretical propositions with concrete reality.

It seems very bizarre indeed to recognize the problem of a "rent-seeking state by a plurality of various oligarchies" and to propose as a solution that the very state in question should act as everyone's de facto landlord.

Re: Why are there suddenly so many car washes?

#589
post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Never mind that many real estate tax regimes already include a component based on the land value. It's strange, because almost all property tax systems in the US are based on ad valorem taxation. I'm personally opposed to the concept as a matter of fundamental principle. Society can't function if people's property rights are constantly under the threat of being usurped by someone whose intended uses might generate…

This argument sounds backwards to me. Under the common ad valorem property taxes, the tax you pay goes up if you invest in increasing the value of your property, which punishes you for improving it and incentivizes leaving your land fallow. Under a land value tax, building on your land does not increase the tax you pay. That’s the point!

> Under a land value tax, building on your land does not increase the tax you pay. That’s the point!

The Georgist LVT is much more bizarre than that. Your taxes don't go up as a result of the improvements you make to your land, but rather they go up as a result of the improvements your neighbors make to their land, if such improvements lead to increased perceived market value for the entire area.

Ad valorem taxes already do this to some extent, but are tempered by assessment rules and annual caps on increases, to prevent people from losing their own property just because of external fads or the subjective feelings of others.

I guess I just don't get what benefit the LVT proposals are bringing to the table. Ad valorem taxation already exists, it's already well-developed enough to have safeguards against the worst-case outcomes, and all the Georgist LVT would do is reinvent the wheel, but this time using design principles anchored in a fundamentally incoherent ideology that brings along a lot of other dangerous implications.

I have to ask what real-world problem any of these proposals are a solution to, because from my vantage point, I don't really see one. I see devotees of an abstract doctrine going out of their way to contrive scenarios to apply their doctrine to.

Re: Why are there suddenly so many car washes?

#590
post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Land in the right place is not merely economically scarce, it's economic land I don't see how there's anything particularly special about land that warrants construing it as something fundamentally different from any other scarce resource. > Supply and demand doesn't work for land because there's no new supply. I'm not sure that I agree that there is no new supply of land in an economic sense -- developments that i…

“I don't see how there's anything particularly special about land that warrants construing it as something fundamentally different from any other scarce resource.” I’ve overheard enough conversations between high net worth individuals to say there’s absolutely unique qualities about land as an asset class or they wouldn’t hold so much of it. read some solid reasons for land focused tax regimes long ago but couldn’t r…

> I’ve overheard enough conversations between high net worth individuals to say there’s absolutely unique qualities about land as an asset class or they wouldn’t hold so much of it.

Every asset class has its own uniquely defining characteristics in financial terms. There are unique qualities of stocks, of bonds, of index funds, etc. But I don't see any fundamental difference between land and any other scarce resources in real economic terms, and definitely nothing sufficient to treat land differently as a fundamental philosophical principle!

> Immobility: Land doesn’t move, making it a stable tax base.

Lots of things don't move in any meaningful way with respect to taxing jurisdictions.

> Scarcity: No more land is being created, so taxing it efficiently is crucial.

I disagree that no more land is being created in an economic sense. As I mentioned above, developments that increase efficiency of particular use cases for land are economically equivalent to the supply of land expanding.

And there are even some cases where new land is even being created in a literal physical sense -- see the Netherlands, for example.

> Non-distortionary: Taxing unimproved land doesn’t distort transactions.

It certainly does distort transactions for unimproved land. And what is "unimproved land" in the first place? Whose definitions apply, and how do we handle edge cases. If I purchase a plot of land for the specific purpose of maintaining it in its natural state as a preserve, is it improved or unimproved?

> Local Funding: LVT may be an effective way to fund local government since land cannot be moved to avoid taxes

But there are lots of other ways of avoiding taxes. Still, this purely pragmatic point -- which correctly understands taxation as a means to fund the necessary operations of government, and not a tool to manipulate behavior or as an end in itself -- explains why a large portion of local government funding already comes from property taxes.

I'm not sure what trying to take what already works and reconstitute it according to Georgist principles (which are logically weak and entail a lot of dangerous implications) brings to the table.

> So yeah. Tax the damn land already. Especially to fund local government and services, which you kinda need to have a functioning society.

Property is already widely taxed, local governments are already funded, and society is already functioning, car washes and all.

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