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Wozniak calls for open Apple

itnews.com.au

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Re: Wozniak calls for open Apple

#61

Post by jiggy2011 »

rogerbinns wrote: post #21

Here is a nice comparison. Buy a mobile device and try to use the standard developer tools to put Hello World on it. Android: Download Eclipse (Windows, Linux or Mac) and the Android SDK (Windows, Linux or Mac) - no accounts or registration needed for either of these. In your phone menus enable development and connect via USB. In Eclipse make your hello world project, and hit Run or Debug. Enjoy. Apple: You must buy…

I've never quite understood why they require a Mac for development. Surely it wouldn't be insurmountable to port the tools to Windows/Linux?

They might sell a few more Mac desktops this way but I can't see it being a large number in the grand scheme of things.

One of the reasons I bought an Android instead of an iPhone was because I can develop for it using the computer I already have.

Re: Wozniak calls for open Apple

#62

Post by rogerbinns »

grannyg00se wrote: post #58
rogerbinns wrote: post #21

Here is a nice comparison. Buy a mobile device and try to use the standard developer tools to put Hello World on it. Android: Download Eclipse (Windows, Linux or Mac) and the Android SDK (Windows, Linux or Mac) - no accounts or registration needed for either of these. In your phone menus enable development and connect via USB. In Eclipse make your hello world project, and hit Run or Debug. Enjoy. Apple: You must buy…

You (ahem) forgot Blackberry. It has been a while for me but from what I can recall you are ready to go once you download the blackberry IDE. There may be an eclipse plugin for that now so you don't have to download the whole monster.

I didn't forget Blackberry. I tried to develop for it in the past. There were a never ending series of downloads. You had to keep registering, repeatedly filling in the same detailed information before they begrudgingly handed over anything. After filling up my machine with bloatware I was unable to even get hello world to appear in an emulator. The chance of getting anything on my device was zero, and they required all sorts of extra certificates and payment to use any of the useful APIs.

This whole process is part of RIM's DNA. A year ago when they were doing the whole Playbook thing it repeated: http://blog.jamiemurai.com/2011/02/you-win-rim/

Quite frankly I know many former Blackberry users but I don't know a single current one. I have no idea why anyone would even consider the platform.

Re: Wozniak calls for open Apple

#63

Post by Xuzz »

rogerbinns wrote: post #45
ConstantineXVI wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WP is utterly painless re: deployment; plug it in, give it a dev certificate (automated, you only sign in to apphub), and hit run from MSVS. What I was more impressed with, they handle signing your xap for release as well; it's all automatic (slightly less so on Android, much less so on iOS).

What specifically do you have to do to get that dev certificate? Is that for you or for the device? (Note I'm only talking about the case where you want to put you own app on your own device, not about publishing it to the general public.) Hopefully my original post inspires someone to try this with all the platforms. I'm particularly aware of the requirements to create accounts and registrations, the size of downloa…

You pay $99 for an App Hub registration, then sign in to the device registration app on the desktop with the device plugged in. After that, it's pretty much automatic. I haven't done that much WP dev yet, so I'm not sure about friend's devices, but so far it's been relatively painless.

(Well, except Windows making installing VS and the Zune software almost impossible, but that's just what happens with Windows. On a clean install. After installing all the updates it wanted. Of which half failed the first time. And rebooting. And rebooting again. But none of that is related to Windows Phone, except that as Apple doesn't make tools for their competitors OSes, Microsoft doesn't either.)

Re: Wozniak calls for open Apple

#64

Post by userdeveloper »

bitwize wrote: post #32

Not gonna happen. Apple devices are abstractions with well-defined interfaces (sets of operations you can perform on them). Not only should the implementation not matter, it is anathema that anyone should know the implementation because that would break the abstraction at a fundamental level. It's absurd for a bunch of hackers to think about, but this is what has made Apple billions of dollars, and it's what made the…

The true simplicity actually lies below those abstractions.

It seems reasonable to assume that people would not buy Apple products if they were too difficult to use.

It seems reasonable to assume people do not buy them for ease of use. Other competing systems are also easy to use. It seems reasonable to assume they buy them because they "look cool", much more so than any competing product.

It seems reasonable to assume the initial attraction to Apple products is the hardware design, not the software.

But none of this can be proved or disproved unless Apple were to unbundle the two and hackers were allowed to write software to run on the bare metal, not necessarily on top of Apple's development platform.

If Apple is afraid to try this then it shows they have something to fear. It shows they feel the need to exercise command and control over how users use Apple computers.

Apparently Apple's hardware design patents are not enough.

Re: Wozniak calls for open Apple

#65

Post by ricardobeat »

rogerbinns wrote: post #21

Here is a nice comparison. Buy a mobile device and try to use the standard developer tools to put Hello World on it. Android: Download Eclipse (Windows, Linux or Mac) and the Android SDK (Windows, Linux or Mac) - no accounts or registration needed for either of these. In your phone menus enable development and connect via USB. In Eclipse make your hello world project, and hit Run or Debug. Enjoy. Apple: You must buy…

That's a brutal over-simplification of what you need before developing for Android. "Downloading the Android SDK" is actually a dozen steps of installs, updates, add-ons, setting up emulator devices and so on.

The Apple dance takes a couple minutes to do and costs $99/year.

Re: Wozniak calls for open Apple

#66

Post by ricardobeat »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #61
rogerbinns wrote: post #21

Here is a nice comparison. Buy a mobile device and try to use the standard developer tools to put Hello World on it. Android: Download Eclipse (Windows, Linux or Mac) and the Android SDK (Windows, Linux or Mac) - no accounts or registration needed for either of these. In your phone menus enable development and connect via USB. In Eclipse make your hello world project, and hit Run or Debug. Enjoy. Apple: You must buy…

I've never quite understood why they require a Mac for development. Surely it wouldn't be insurmountable to port the tools to Windows/Linux? They might sell a few more Mac desktops this way but I can't see it being a large number in the grand scheme of things. One of the reasons I bought an Android instead of an iPhone was because I can develop for it using the computer I already have.

Porting XCode and emulators to windows/linux is probably a huge undertaking, the technology stack is completely different. In addition, the cost of a Mac for development ($599 for a mini) is not stopping anybody, and most iOS developers will already have one, so there's little return to be had.

Re: Wozniak calls for open Apple

#67

Post by bad_user »

ricardobeat wrote: post #65
rogerbinns wrote: post #21

Here is a nice comparison. Buy a mobile device and try to use the standard developer tools to put Hello World on it. Android: Download Eclipse (Windows, Linux or Mac) and the Android SDK (Windows, Linux or Mac) - no accounts or registration needed for either of these. In your phone menus enable development and connect via USB. In Eclipse make your hello world project, and hit Run or Debug. Enjoy. Apple: You must buy…

That's a brutal over-simplification of what you need before developing for Android. "Downloading the Android SDK" is actually a dozen steps of installs, updates, add-ons, setting up emulator devices and so on. The Apple dance takes a couple minutes to do and costs $99/year.

     "Downloading the Android SDK" is actually a dozen
     steps of installs, updates, add-ons, setting up 
     emulator devices and so on.
That's not true. The first time I did it, it took me something like 10 minutes. I must say that I was already familiar enough with Eclipse to install the plugin without much struggling (though it can't get any easier, unless it came built-in). Beginners should also try out IntelliJ IDEA which comes with Android integration built-in.

     The Apple dance takes a couple minutes to 
     do and costs $99/year.
That's also not true. It took me somewhere between 2 and 3 hours. And you don't have to pay $99 for getting the Hello World on your phone, but you do have to fuck around with certificates for signing the binary and you also have to read a lot of documentation.

Re: Wozniak calls for open Apple

#68

Post by jiggy2011 »

ricardobeat wrote: post #66
jiggy2011 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never quite understood why they require a Mac for development. Surely it wouldn't be insurmountable to port the tools to Windows/Linux? They might sell a few more Mac desktops this way but I can't see it being a large number in the grand scheme of things. One of the reasons I bought an Android instead of an iPhone was because I can develop for it using the computer I already have.

Porting XCode and emulators to windows/linux is probably a huge undertaking, the technology stack is completely different. In addition, the cost of a Mac for development ($599 for a mini) is not stopping anybody, and most iOS developers will already have one, so there's little return to be had.

$599 for a mini would be stopping me for me one. Since I'm not getting paid to do mobile development $599 is money that could get me a holiday or a used car, I'm not trying to make angry birds here; just a few tools to make my life easier. Besides it seems silly to spend all that money on a low spec Mac when I already have a perfectly serviceable workstation that I have invested in.

Even if it cost them a fair amount of money to port it all over, they're Apple so they have the money in the bank. Plus I can imagine the ROI would be fairly significant when you consider how many more people could get into casual iOS development and then potentially make it into a full time thing.

Re: Wozniak calls for open Apple

#69

Post by gnufied »

ricardobeat wrote: post #65
rogerbinns wrote: post #21

Here is a nice comparison. Buy a mobile device and try to use the standard developer tools to put Hello World on it. Android: Download Eclipse (Windows, Linux or Mac) and the Android SDK (Windows, Linux or Mac) - no accounts or registration needed for either of these. In your phone menus enable development and connect via USB. In Eclipse make your hello world project, and hit Run or Debug. Enjoy. Apple: You must buy…

That's a brutal over-simplification of what you need before developing for Android. "Downloading the Android SDK" is actually a dozen steps of installs, updates, add-ons, setting up emulator devices and so on. The Apple dance takes a couple minutes to do and costs $99/year.

Ahem, if you are registering from something like India. You will have to fax some documents to them for review. There is no option to even pay online. In fact, this song and dance is so time consuming that, I haven't bothered to register an account myself.

Re: Wozniak calls for open Apple

#70

Post by bad_user »

ricardobeat wrote: post #66
jiggy2011 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never quite understood why they require a Mac for development. Surely it wouldn't be insurmountable to port the tools to Windows/Linux? They might sell a few more Mac desktops this way but I can't see it being a large number in the grand scheme of things. One of the reasons I bought an Android instead of an iPhone was because I can develop for it using the computer I already have.

Porting XCode and emulators to windows/linux is probably a huge undertaking, the technology stack is completely different. In addition, the cost of a Mac for development ($599 for a mini) is not stopping anybody, and most iOS developers will already have one, so there's little return to be had.

The cost for a Mac Mini is big enough for me. Yes I can afford it (I actually do own one), however a Mac Mini is a desktop and that's so 1998 that I can't stand it.

Personally I have a pretty close and loving relationship with my workstation. That's why it needs to be a laptop.

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