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Oh shit, my app is successful and I didn't think about accessibility

jacobbartlett.substack.com

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Re: Oh shit, my app is successful and I didn't think about accessibility

#181

Post by coolliquidcode »

JadeNB wrote: post #155
coolliquidcode wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should see how ADA requirements are practically impossible or completely break design. The high contrast of font to background requirement is so extreme that most major sites and even ADA related sites fail. Things like alt text is so time consuming it would be incredibly expensive to label all the images. Facebook has long resorted to using AI descriptions. Really it shouldn't be up to the developer it should be…

> Things like alt text is so time consuming it would be incredibly expensive to label all the images. Facebook has long resorted to using AI descriptions. > Really it shouldn't be up to the developer it should be up to the disabled person to buy tools. Just like someone may need to buy a wheelchair to move around, they should have to buy a specialty browser that handles their limited visibility needs or brail tool in…

It sucks to be disabled and this is why it sucks. People shouldn't be wasting lifetimes of time to so that visually disabled people can be slightly more convenienced to browse the internet or play with an app. Especially with alt-text. Minimal effort is fine. Well structured HTML is all that should be needed.

> How can buying a specialty browser solve a problem of a blind person needing alt text for images? If a picture is worth a thousand words you're never going to get the alt text right. There can always be complaints it's not good enough. Look at what happened to Dominoes. They made efforts but it wasn't good enough.

Re: Oh shit, my app is successful and I didn't think about accessibility

#182

Post by dmazzoni »

mikece wrote: post #5

What is the real liability for a scenario like this? Is there any grace period when a new app or startup becomes far more successful far sooner than expected? I imagine A11Y isn't a massive concern when it's not certain an idea will even work; outside of California I can't imagine being legally skewered if, once you attain unexpected success, you devote A11Y resources to address this issue.

You should invest as much into accessibility as you do into scaling.

Meaning: you should think about it early on, and design for the need, but not over invest in it too early.

If you're at the the stage where you don't know if your idea will work, you shouldn't be polishing accessibility, just like you shouldn't be denormalizing your database schema to increase performance.

However, you should be thinking about accessibility, just like you should be thinking about how your database queries will scale if you get increased load.

So for example: if you're making a database of images, why not add a field for alt text from the start and start populating it now? If your app needs drag and drop, why not start sketching out an alternative flow for people who can't drag and drop now?

Re: Oh shit, my app is successful and I didn't think about accessibility

#183

Post by madeofpalk »

PaulStatezny wrote: post #39
IncreasePosts wrote: post #2

Why have we settled upon annotating accessibility options onto a visual-first, generally high-precision/high-touch-density medium? Wouldn't it be better to just have a "low vision" version of the app, a "low touch accuracy" version of the app, etc? Then you could provide the accessibility-minded users with something customized to their needs, instead of trying to shoehorn accessibility onto a layout that might have n…

> Wouldn't it be better to just have a "low vision" version of the app, a "low touch accuracy" version of the app, etc? I find your comment interesting because it speaks to users who can see, just not well . When I think of web accessibility, I (mostly) think of users who are entirely blind. While it turns out: ~80% of screen reader users are blind. The other ~20% may be partially vision impaired, or sometimes not vi…

Do you wear glasses? HoW many people do you know need corrective lenses?

Re: Oh shit, my app is successful and I didn't think about accessibility

#184

Post by mwcampbell »

coolliquidcode wrote: post #110
huqedato wrote: post #9

I would never agree with this statement of the author: "You won’t stop until everybody is using your app." Why ? All the apps I ever build (or participate in their development) where targeted to the fit the most, without sacrificing the business requirements or other important/critical aspects of the app. Otherwise will end-up with an unusable product.

You should see how ADA requirements are practically impossible or completely break design. The high contrast of font to background requirement is so extreme that most major sites and even ADA related sites fail. Things like alt text is so time consuming it would be incredibly expensive to label all the images. Facebook has long resorted to using AI descriptions. Really it shouldn't be up to the developer it should be…

> The high contrast of font to background requirement is so extreme that most major sites and even ADA related sites fail.

Why don't they just use high contrast? Why is readability so unfashionable?

Re: Oh shit, my app is successful and I didn't think about accessibility

#185

Post by nfw2 »

creesch wrote: post #168
nfw2 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not universally true that accessibility efforts always benefit everyone. For example, implementing ARIA markup on HTML only benefits those using assistive technology. If developers don't know how to make web services accessible, it IS expensive because it will take time to train them. Developer time is often a company's biggest expense. Moreover, not every web product is simple to make accessible even by expert…

> implementing ARIA markup on HTML only benefits those using assistive technology. I'd argue that implementing ARIA markup properly also makes developers consider the general markup and structure of their product. Which in turn can lead to better UX in general, as it will lead to new insights. Yes, training developers does cost time so it is an expensive. That's often true for anything that will improve your product.…

When I said "UX designers often take this from granted", what I meant was "literally every single UX designer I have ever worked with professionally has taken this for granted".

Re: Oh shit, my app is successful and I didn't think about accessibility

#186

Post by dmazzoni »

maxloh wrote: post #14
mikece wrote: post #5

What is the real liability for a scenario like this? Is there any grace period when a new app or startup becomes far more successful far sooner than expected? I imagine A11Y isn't a massive concern when it's not certain an idea will even work; outside of California I can't imagine being legally skewered if, once you attain unexpected success, you devote A11Y resources to address this issue.

Maybe required by EU law? Not a friend of accessibility though. It requires so much work to satisfy a small base of users.

Now you understand why laws like this need to be passed. Because otherwise assholes like you wouldn't do it.

Re: Oh shit, my app is successful and I didn't think about accessibility

#187

Post by madeofpalk »

neomantra wrote: post #143

Just today, I was making a product landing page and wanted it to be accessible. Since we have Instagram, YouTube, and GitHub, I wanted to get the icons from those sources. I looked at how to ensure that with SVG and found this SO [1]. While YouTube does not supply SVGs, the SVGs from Instagram [2] and GitHub [3] did not include any a11y metadata. I was really surprised by this, given the massive user bases thereof, b…

You don't really need to do that. The point of putting alt text on images is to users who use screen readers can still understand your website. Tabbing through in a screen reader hearing detailed descriptions of each social logo is probably a poor user experience.

Probably just "Github logo" or even "Github" would do just as well. If the image/logo is purely presentational (that is - if you remove the image do you remove information from the site?), just blank it out with an empty string.

Re: Oh shit, my app is successful and I didn't think about accessibility

#188

Post by coolliquidcode »

pcl wrote: post #120
coolliquidcode wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should see how ADA requirements are practically impossible or completely break design. The high contrast of font to background requirement is so extreme that most major sites and even ADA related sites fail. Things like alt text is so time consuming it would be incredibly expensive to label all the images. Facebook has long resorted to using AI descriptions. Really it shouldn't be up to the developer it should be…

> “Really it shouldn't be up to the developer it should be up to the disabled person to buy tools. Just like someone may need to buy a wheelchair to move around, they should have to buy a specialty browser that handles their limited visibility needs or brail tool interface.” No, that’s the wrong analogy. The ADA is there to ensure that people with wheelchairs can find a barrier-free entrance to a building, and a curb…

> find a barrier-free entrance to a building, and a curb cut at an intersection I disagree with this too. It's a social nicety but shouldn't be a requirement.

> It should be on us, the developers, to ensure our apps work with the tools of the trade to enable people with limitations Why? I argue it should be on the disabled person.

> The bar is so low. Not really. There are groups of lowers running around looking for people to shake down for ADA misses. To really protect yourself it takes a lot of time.

Re: Oh shit, my app is successful and I didn't think about accessibility

#189

Post by madeofpalk »

nsxwolf wrote: post #112
serial_dev wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with this take, most app frameworks do accessibility mostly right out of the box, it's just most developers never enabled voice over in their life, so they keep modifying the UI and messing up accessibility out of ignorance. It's not that hard, and if every developer spent an afternoon looking into things, they'd realize how easy it is to get it right if the team is aware of it. I'd not mind if like develo…

If it's something like a game with a 100% from scratch engine I wrote, there's nothing at all out of the box.

Is it something like a game with a 100% from scratch engine?

Re: Oh shit, my app is successful and I didn't think about accessibility

#190

Post by Filligree »

mwcampbell wrote: post #184
coolliquidcode wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should see how ADA requirements are practically impossible or completely break design. The high contrast of font to background requirement is so extreme that most major sites and even ADA related sites fail. Things like alt text is so time consuming it would be incredibly expensive to label all the images. Facebook has long resorted to using AI descriptions. Really it shouldn't be up to the developer it should be…

> The high contrast of font to background requirement is so extreme that most major sites and even ADA related sites fail. Why don't they just use high contrast? Why is readability so unfashionable?

Text contrast multiplies with the monitor contrast, which then multiplies again with eyesight quality. The high contrast requirement is to make it readable for someone with poor eyesight on a low-quality monitor...

Which then makes it downright painful for someone with regular eyesight, who sets their monitor to high contrast to improve photo rendering. Grey-on-grey is the only website design that doesn't make me immediately back away.

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