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Story of Vitamin D Toxicity (2022)

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Re: Story of Vitamin D Toxicity (2022)

#61

Post by lambdaba »

bun_terminator wrote: post #59
lambdaba wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8811610/ Figured people can Google, all I bring is awareness this is widely overblown, having taken myself, for therapeutic purposes, upwards of 100k IU per day for months without doctor supervision (but doing it correctly, with a very low calcium diet). People take vit D megadoses for autoimmunity, with significant success, but I'm not discussing this here.

Since you seem to be an expert: What about different forms of vit D? I vaguely remember discussions about pills not being absorbed well. Also I remember people talking that vit D intervention fails to do anything besides raising the blood levels, indicating that things might be more complex. I'm interested in the topic, but never really dived into it.

There are only two forms, the plant/mushroom form (D2) and animal (D3) form.

As with anything fat-soluble it's wise to take it as part of a meal that includes plenty of fat.

The problem with most studies is, surely in part because of this unfounded fear, they are underdosed. I don't have anything on hand, but I know there are clinics supervising megadose vitamin D protocols all over the world, but mostly in Germany and Latin America, that I'm aware of.

Re: Story of Vitamin D Toxicity (2022)

#62

Post by Calavar »

JohnMakin wrote: post #4

I struggle to believe that a physician told her to take 5000 IU of vitamin D daily for 5+ years. This is nearly 10x canada's recommended winter time dose for adults under 70. After years of struggling with severe joint pain and mental fog/depression, among other things it was discovered that I had critically low vitamin D. They prescribed the 5000 dose but told me at least 10 times how I should NOT continue this high…

The recommendation for 200 to 800 IU daily is for people who already have normal vitamin D levels. To correct vitamin D deficiency, modern sources recommend a minimum of 1,500 to 2,000 IU daily [1]. The Endocrine Society even recommends 6,000 IU daily [2], so 5,000 IU is not crazy by any means. There is also nothing crazy about five years of supplementation: Many people won't maintain normal vitamin D levels even after five years of 2,000+ IU (unless they make lifestyle changes like being deliberate about spending more time in the sunlight) and they may need to continue vitamin D repletion indefinitely [2, 3].

5,000 IU is probably a bit much to give without rechecking the vitamin D level at least once a year or so, but at least to me it's not obviously medical malpractice. If there is medical error here, it's ignoring calcium levels higher than 11 mg/dl for months and the fact that the patient had to refer herself to an endocrinologist because her PCP did nothing about it.

Overall, I really don't like this article. The author is generalizing based on outlier cases. She even admits this: "Of course, there is a selection bias in who comes to me. There are people out there doing just fine on 5000 units of Vitamin D daily. I only see the ones who develop high calcium levels." She uses "hormone" as a sort of scare word, kind of how "chemical" is used in other contexts. Sure, there are some hormones that can be very harmful, but there is nothing inherently wrong about taking hormone supplements, even for an extended period of time, just like there is nothing inherently wrong about consuming "chemicals."

I strongly disagree about restricting over the counter vitamin D. Tylenol and ibuprofen lead to thousands of hospital admissions and hundreds of deaths per year, and yet we freely give them over the counter. If vitamin D doesn't meet the threshold for OTC, then basically nothing does.

Parts 1 and 3 of the series are better. I agree that the evidence on vitamin D for most things other bone growth in children and osteoporosis is weak.

[1] https://www.ccjm.org/content/89/3/154 ("Increasing and maintaining the 25(OH)D level consistently above 30 ng/mL may require at least 1,500–2,000 IU/day")

[2] https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/96/7/1911/2833671 ("We suggest that all adults who are vitamin D deficient be treated with 50,000 IU of vitamin D2 or vitamin D3 once a week for 8 wk or its equivalent of 6000 IU of vitamin D2 or vitamin D3 daily to achieve a blood level of 25(OH)D above 30 ng/ml, followed by maintenance therapy of 1500–2000 IU/d")

[3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2912737/ ("Regardless of initial vitamin D therapy, and assuming no change in lifestyle or diet, a maintenance/prevention daily dose of 800 to 2000 IU or more will be needed to avoid recurrent deficiency")

Re: Story of Vitamin D Toxicity (2022)

#63

Post by dragonwriter »

JohnMakin wrote: post #4

I struggle to believe that a physician told her to take 5000 IU of vitamin D daily for 5+ years. This is nearly 10x canada's recommended winter time dose for adults under 70. After years of struggling with severe joint pain and mental fog/depression, among other things it was discovered that I had critically low vitamin D. They prescribed the 5000 dose but told me at least 10 times how I should NOT continue this high…

I've been on 10,000 IU daily for longer than that, its the only thing that brought me up into the normal range, and my doctor just does periodic blood tests (for either it going high or any signs of the problems that can come from it being too high) and has it listed with my current medication in my chart.

The miscommunication seems to be in her care team: symptoms associated with high vitamin D occurred, she was known to be on a high supplemental dose, but it was months of progressively worsening symptoms before anyone put 2 and 2 together.

Vitamin D seems less of the issue here than sharing and/or appropriately considering medical records

Re: Story of Vitamin D Toxicity (2022)

#64

Post by Traubenfuchs »

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #51
Traubenfuchs wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Salad considered harmful. https://archive.is/wip/vqmi5 > Professor Pennington also pointed out that a bean sprout farm in northern Germany was identified as the most likely source of many of the infections in the E. coli outbreak that left 22 people dead in 2011.

On the CDC's website there seems to be an outbreak of e. coli every year, and uncooked greens are a constant: https://www.cdc.gov/ecoli/outbreaks.html Washing them doesn't help: https://www.consumerreports.org/e-coli/washing-greens-protec... Could be linked to cows: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/sep/01/unclean-... https://www.verywellhealth.com/lettuce-e-coli-contamination-... On top of all that, root…

> On top of all that, root veggies and leafy greens absorb a lot of toxins

Fantastic. I felt really good about myself starting to eat leafy greens consistently this year. There is no escape from the poison.

Re: Story of Vitamin D Toxicity (2022)

#65

Post by chimeracoder »

JohnMakin wrote: post #55
chimeracoder wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yea, the dosage and labeling for sure needs work. I see 2000 IU doses regularly sold in stores and the bottle says you can take 2/day. Obviously no doctor would recommend that for anyone not sick. That is simply not true. Doctors do recommend 2000-4000 IU for healthy patients all the time.

I should clarify by what I obviously meant that doctors would not recommend that as a DAILY dose - daily implying long-term use is okay.

> I should clarify by what I obviously meant that doctors would not recommend that as a DAILY dose - daily implying long-term use is okay.

Yes, and I'm saying that this does in fact happen.

Re: Story of Vitamin D Toxicity (2022)

#66

Post by mixmastamyk »

snapcaster wrote: post #3

Interesting stuff, I hear people advocating vitamin D supplement all the time. I'm wary of supplements in general so have mostly avoided it but never realized it could be dangerous (I tend to think I should be able to get everything I need from my diet)

Very little D comes from diet.

You can overdose on water if you try hard enough. Similarly it is really hard to overdose on D—most likely you are deficient.

Re: Story of Vitamin D Toxicity (2022)

#67

Post by AnnikaL »

JohnMakin wrote: post #4

I struggle to believe that a physician told her to take 5000 IU of vitamin D daily for 5+ years. This is nearly 10x canada's recommended winter time dose for adults under 70. After years of struggling with severe joint pain and mental fog/depression, among other things it was discovered that I had critically low vitamin D. They prescribed the 5000 dose but told me at least 10 times how I should NOT continue this high…

5000 IU is 10x the recommended dose? I'm Vitamin D deficient (though not Canadian) and currently have a prescription for 1000 IU daily regardless of season, and that's the lowest dose I've been on in a while.

Re: Story of Vitamin D Toxicity (2022)

#68

Post by mrmuagi »

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #39

> The only lingering effects appeared to be a wariness of physicians and distrust of vitamins, both understandable I am not a doctor, by any stretch of the imagination. But I do work on cars, and computers. As far as I can tell, a doctor works exactly the same way as a mechanic or a computer technician. They listen to symptoms, make an educated guess at a root cause based on limited information, make an educated gues…

Gaining expertise in cars/computers doesn't really translate to health medicine. It's a fallacy that I saw first hand, that say, some one gains expertise in one thing then feels confident to take on another in DIY spirit. A concrete example is someone who builds a shed that thinks they can do a bathroom renovation/remodel or build their own cabinets (don't look at me :P).

Having to throw in the towel and hire a professional I saw: - How experts do things much faster (literally 1/3rd the time). - How experts avoid conflicts ahead of time/or deal with them as they arise quickly - How experts know the name of all the things ahead of time - How experts realize when a problem is out of their wheelhouse and requires a referral (electrical/plumbing/etc).

I had to call it quits mainly because the DIY spirit is instilled into me by my father and love for tinkering. But I see it in my father, he tries to repair his own cars (with good results), because in his words mechanics are a scam and for the longest time I kind of assumed so too, but the truth is expertise is invaluable and what you are paying for is time/knowledge.

You don't expect yourself to go to med school to diagnose your problem, someone has already done that and you can leverage that.

Re: Story of Vitamin D Toxicity (2022)

#69

Post by neurostimulant »

chasil wrote: post #56
Traubenfuchs wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Salad considered harmful. https://archive.is/wip/vqmi5 > Professor Pennington also pointed out that a bean sprout farm in northern Germany was identified as the most likely source of many of the infections in the E. coli outbreak that left 22 people dead in 2011.

Bean sprouts are well known to be dangerous when eaten raw. 'Such infections, which are so frequent in the United States that investigators call them "sproutbreaks", may be a result of contaminated seeds or of unhygienic production with high microbial counts.' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprouting#Health_concerns

Yeah, you'll have to wash and boil them, not too long though or they're not crunchy anymore.

Re: Story of Vitamin D Toxicity (2022)

#70

Post by oarfish »

FigurativeVoid wrote: post #8

I have recently gotten much more invested in my health, and that has lead to me cutting basically every supplement I was taking short of a few that are really excellent and well studied. On the back of some vitamin D bottles, you'll see warnings about taking it if you have high calcium levels because it could lead to cardio vascular issues. While most people considered the risk of supplementation to be low, there app…

A lot of supplements are also mislabed or incorrectly dosed, because the regulations are quite lax. So even if a supplement makes sense in theory, you don't know what you're getting unless the manufacturer follows the Good Manufacturing Practices and does some kind of third party testing.
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