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Thoughts on the Future of Software Development

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Re: Thoughts on the Future of Software Development

#61
post #47
post #26

As long as there is no AGI, no software engineer needs to be worried about their job. And when there is, obviously everything in every field will change and this discussion will soon be futile.

You don’t have to completely replace people with machines to destroy jobs. It suffices if you make people more effective so that fewer employees are needed.

Or lower the bar of successfully doing such work so that the field opens up to many more workers.

Many software devs will likley have job security in the future, however those $180k salaries are probably much less secure.

Re: Thoughts on the Future of Software Development

#62
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the one hand, I agree with you. On the other hand, you could make similar arguments for the typewriter, the printing press, or the wheel.

Those are tools humans use to created output directly to speed up a process. The equivalent argument for AI would be if the typewriter wrote you a novel based on what you asked it to write, and then everyone else's typewriter might create the same/similar novel if it's averaging all of the same human data input. This leads to a cultural inbreeding of sorts since the data that went into it was curated to begin with. T…

Humans also need human data. You might be better than I, but at least for myself, I know that I am just a weighted pattern matcher with a some stochasticity mixed in.

I don't think the idea of painstakingly writing out a book, and then having a printing press propagate your book so that all can easily reproduce the idea in their own mind, is so very different.

I think this is why the real conversation here is about the lossiness of the data, where the "data" is conveying a fundamental idea. Put another way, human creativity is iterative, and the reason we accept "innovative" ideas is that we have a shared understanding of a body of work, a canon, and the real innovation is taking the canon and mixing it up with one new innovation.

I'm not even arguing that AI is net good or bad for humanity. Just that it really isn't so different than the printing press. And like the Bible was to the printing press, I think the dominant AI model will greatly shape human output for a very long time, as the new "canon" in an otherwise splintered society, for good and for bad.

Proprietary models, with funding and existing reach (like the Catholic Church when the Gutenberg press came along), will dominate the mental space. We already have Martin Luther's nailing creeds to the door of that church, though.

Still, writing by hand does still have special meaning, encoding additional information that is not conveyed by printing press. But then as now, that additional meaning is mostly only accessible to those closest to you, that have more shared experiences with you.

I'll accept that there's an additional distinction, though, since layers of communication will be imported and applied without understanding of their context; ideas replaced, filled in, rather than stripped. But let's be honest: every interpretation of a text was already distinct and uniquely an individual's own, albeit likely similar to those that shared an in-group.

AI upsets the balance between producers and consumers, but not in the way that it's easier for more people to be producers, but in this day in age, that there is so little time left to be a consumer when everyone you know can be such a prolific producer.

Edit: typewriters and printing presses also need human data

Re: Thoughts on the Future of Software Development

#63
post #37
post #26

As long as there is no AGI, no software engineer needs to be worried about their job. And when there is, obviously everything in every field will change and this discussion will soon be futile.

Market consolidation (Microsoft/Google/Amazon) might cause a jobpocalypse, just as it did for the jobs of well paid auto workers in the 1950s (GM/Chrysler/Ford). GM/Chrysler/Ford didn't have to be better than the startup competition they just had to be mediocre + be able to use their market power (vertical integration) to squash it like a bug. The tech industry is headed in that direction as computing platforms all c…

Seems about right to me. Hyper-standardization around few architecture patterns using Kubernetes/Kafka/Microservice/GraphQL/React/OTelemetry etc can roughly cover 95-99% of all typical software development when you add a cloud DB.

Now I know there are ton of different flavors in each of these tech but they will be mostly distraction for employers. With heavy layer of abstraction of above pattern and SLAs by vendors as you say Microsoft/Google/Amazon etc employers will be least bothered vast variety of software products.

Re: Thoughts on the Future of Software Development

#64
Software Developers (humans) are the horses, the models are the mechanical cars, and the analysts and business experts are the drivers. Software's only job is to empower the end user, and that's exactly what these models are doing. We're going to see a massive paradigm shift in how software technology is built in the next decade.

Re: Thoughts on the Future of Software Development

#65
post #26

As long as there is no AGI, no software engineer needs to be worried about their job. And when there is, obviously everything in every field will change and this discussion will soon be futile.

I would argue future engineers should be worried a bit. We no longer need to hire new developers.

I was not trained professionally yet I'm writing production code that's passing code reviews in languages I never used. I will create a prompt, validate it compiles, passes tests, have it explain so I understand it was written as expected and write documentation about the code, write the PR, and I am seen as a competent contributor. I can't pass leet code level 1 yet here I am being invited to speak to developers.

Velocity goes up and cost of features will drop. This is good. I'm seeing at least 10 to 1 output from a year ago based upon integrating these new tools.

Re: Thoughts on the Future of Software Development

#66
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making sure those productive minds sell ads rather than do science. Value creation!

Yes. The distribution of information is indeed a complex problem, as graph theory shows us. Regarding science is about one standard deviation further than software development in complexity. It's not necessarily a trade off. On the contrary, software applies scientific breakthroughs.

My problem isn't the graph or even its particular failings (vanishing gradients in science being one of many), it's the ideological opposition to regularization.

Re: Thoughts on the Future of Software Development

#67
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A practical definition of "creativity" is "can create interesting things." It's pretty clear that machines have become more "creative" in that sense over the last few years.

I have yet to see ChatGPT or something similar ask a followup to clarify the question. They just give you a "solution". That's equivalent of a super bad junior dev that will cause more trouble than the amount they will solve. That being said, I think we could make such a system. It just has to have training data that is competent...

I have had chatGPT suggest that I give it more data/information pretty regularly. Although not technically a question, it essentially accomplishes the same thing. "If you give me this" vs. "Can you give me this?"

Re: Thoughts on the Future of Software Development

#68

I don't really think that thinking of LLMs and related technologies as "Artificial Humans" is the right way to think about how they're going to be integrated into workflows. What is going to happen is that people are going to be adopt these tools to solve particular tasks that are annoying or tedious for developers to do, in a way similar to the way tools like Ansible and Chef replaced the task of logging into ssh se…

> 1) Those tasks that it is still currently only possible for a human to do. 2) Those tasks which are easier and cheaper for a human to do.

I agree, but "1" must include all tasks where a mistake could lead to liabilities for the company, which is probably most tasks. LLMs can't be held responsible for their fuckups, they can't be punished, they have no body. It's like the genie from the bottle, it will grant your three wishes, but they might turn out in a surprising way and it can't be held accountable.

The same will apply for example for using LLMs in medicine. We can't afford to risk it on AI, a human must certify the diagnosis and treatment.

In conclusion we can say LLMs can't handle accountability, not even in principle. That's a big issue in many jobs. The OP mentioned this as well:

> even when AI coders can be rented out like EC2 instances, it will be beneficial to have an inhouse team of Software Developers to oversee their work

Oversight is basically manual-mode AI alignment. We won't automate that, the more advanced an AI, the more effort we need to put in overseeing its work.

Re: Thoughts on the Future of Software Development

#69
post #64

Software Developers (humans) are the horses, the models are the mechanical cars, and the analysts and business experts are the drivers. Software's only job is to empower the end user, and that's exactly what these models are doing. We're going to see a massive paradigm shift in how software technology is built in the next decade.

Maybe.

Currently, these models seem to be useful but produce incorrect code sometimes, right? So coders might need to still exist. And they do they actually work well for whole projects, or just snippets of code (I’m sure increasing project size will be an area of rapid improvement). Also the models are trained on existing code, will the models need extra data to train them?

The analogy would fit if we still needed horses to drive manual cars or to help navigate. Or if cars were an interpolation of horse behavior and we studied horses to improve the operation of cars.

Re: Thoughts on the Future of Software Development

#70
post #26

As long as there is no AGI, no software engineer needs to be worried about their job. And when there is, obviously everything in every field will change and this discussion will soon be futile.

This has been my cope mantra so far. I don't mind if my job changes a lot (and ideally loses the part I dislike the most — writing the actual code), and if I find myself in a position where my entire skillset doesn't matter at all, then well a LOT of people are in trouble.

I have seen programmers express that they dislike writing code before and I wonder what the ratio of people who dislike it and people who like it, is. For me, writing code is one of the most enjoyable aspects of programming.
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