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Running late for college, and the scooter is stuck in an update

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Re: Running late for college, and the scooter is stuck in an update

#31

Post by sandworm101 »

jeffbee wrote: post #9
wongarsu wrote: post #3

Software trying to update when it is started is such a common pattern, despite almost always going against user intent. When I start software, that's because I want to use it. It's pretty high on the list of times I don't want it to become temporarily unusable while it updates itself. Doing the same with vehicle firmware is a sad but predictable state of things.

I can think of several devices I own that never do this. 1) My LG webOS TV. Somehow it always does its thing in the dark. OS and application updates have never been visible to me. 2) My car. Even though it can update over wifi, and by other means, it never tries to do it unbidden. You have to invoke its maintenance mode, at the time of your own choosing, if ever. 3) Google/Nest Wifi, OnHub, et cetera. Always up-to-da…

>> 2) My car. Even though it can update over wifi, and by other means, it never tries to do it unbidden.

Today. That could change tomorrow. We already have forced updates for popular operating systems. Mandatory "safety" updates for car software will come one day.

I'm waiting for the day that different states implement different software rules. Imagine if Nevada implemented speed-governors but Texas didn't. I see a world where everyone has to pull over at the state line to allow their car to reconfigure software in order to accommodate local rules.

Re: Running late for college, and the scooter is stuck in an update

#34

Post by thfuran »

PopAlongKid wrote: post #12
k12sosse wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying approximately 3 times a week you reinstall windows on your kids machines?

It sounds from sibling comment that Windows is only booted up at irregular, far-apart times. So most likely there are weeks or months of accumulated updates all trying to go at the same time. No mention of what Windows version is running, or how old the hardware is (limited ram, slow disk, etc). As a counterpoint anecdote, I've been using Windows 10 Pro on a half dozen both newer and older machines ever since it came…

The only time I had problems with a win10 update was the fiasco when an update broke veracrypt. But that was pretty annoying.

Re: Running late for college, and the scooter is stuck in an update

#35

Post by MasterScrat »

wongarsu wrote: post #3

Software trying to update when it is started is such a common pattern, despite almost always going against user intent. When I start software, that's because I want to use it. It's pretty high on the list of times I don't want it to become temporarily unusable while it updates itself. Doing the same with vehicle firmware is a sad but predictable state of things.

I used Windows 10 for the first time in years this weekend to play games

While playing, Windows would switch from the game to a stupid "Restart your computer now or in 1 hour?" modal - with no option to get it to permanently go away. And it kept popping up every hour. Infuriating.

See screenshot here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/8kismw/wtf_micro...

Re: Running late for college, and the scooter is stuck in an update

#36

Post by jerf »

michaelt wrote: post #10

Honestly I've never understood any sort of software update or new user guide or changelog appearing when the user starts the software . You know why I've just launched this game in Steam? Why I've just opened this shared meeting whiteboard software? Why I've opened my bank's banking app? Because this is the moment I want to use it. If I open Skype it's because I need to be on a video call within the next 15 seconds.…

"How could a UX team possibly conclude that the precise moment a user shows unambiguous intent to use your product, is the best time to get in their way?"

Well, the most natural answer is that it's not a UX team. It's the software engineers observing that since our program isn't running all the time, this is the moment we have to check for things.

And roll around that design issue a few more times and that's why your computer is running upwards of dozens bespoke programs that do nothing but scan for updates periodically and consume surprisingly large amounts of resources to do it since apparently most programmers can't write a program to try a network request every couple of days to consume anything less than a gig of RAM and 25%+ continuous CPU.

Re: Running late for college, and the scooter is stuck in an update

#37

Post by ryandrake »

Automatic updates are terrible and the first thing I do when I get a new device or reinstall an OS is try to figure out how to disable them. Sadly, I am losing this battle and more and more stuff insists on updating behind my back, without me commanding them to update. This should be unacceptable. When I buy something I should be in full control of what it’s doing, not the manufacturer. I dont care if the software is vulnerable to CVE-1234567 or if there are lots of great bug fixes or if the manufacturer simply really really really wants me to see the yet-another big UI update it’s done. Updates should be done when I say they are done (or not), on my schedule, and only after I know what the update changes.

I don’t want to hear the manufacturer’s excuses. I know “most people” are clueless and leave security problems unpatched. “Most people” have also gotten accustomed to being abused by their software products that are out of their control. I’m not “most people” and I won’t tolerate being treated like this by device manufacturers. The product gets returned if I have no control over what it does.

Re: Running late for college, and the scooter is stuck in an update

#38

Post by nonrandomstring »

The fundamental mistake of software engineering here is not when the "scooter" updates, but that it updates at all.

Not everything that uses electricity requires an embedded computer connected to the internet.

We could ask the question as: Give me a list of good reasons why a scooter should be connected to the internet?

We might get answers like:

   The built in map or GPS needs updating

   The pricing list for hire needs changing

   The battery monitoring software has changed
Every one of these reasons, and many more, have nothing to do with the operation of the device qua scooter. Everything it did yesterday it could do equally well today.

The problem is modularity, specifically the poor coupling and cohesion of subsystems within the design. Everything in our list relates to something other than the function as a scooter; like navigation, payments, telemetry.

In a properly designed system these have to be seen as essentially separate systems with diverged functional requirements. Each could operate and update in its own way if necessary. The default behaviour of the 'scooter' system should be to keep operating as a scooter, regardless.

Re: Running late for college, and the scooter is stuck in an update

#39

Post by bluGill »

michaelt wrote: post #10

Honestly I've never understood any sort of software update or new user guide or changelog appearing when the user starts the software . You know why I've just launched this game in Steam? Why I've just opened this shared meeting whiteboard software? Why I've opened my bank's banking app? Because this is the moment I want to use it. If I open Skype it's because I need to be on a video call within the next 15 seconds.…

I get annoyed enough when it is a normal startup. I turned my computer on at 6:28 today, because I knew I had a 7:30 meeting I needed to be join - I was a minute late and that was normal startup. It is even worse if the computer did an update the day before - even though the computer was off for 15 hours and so there was plenty of time: there is no option "install updates doing whatever reboots needed then shutdown when done". Instead I have to sit there staring at a update screen while it does whatever.

Re: Running late for college, and the scooter is stuck in an update

#40

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

My car tells me it has an update pending when I start it up; it then allows me to choose to update now or to schedule it for later - defaulting to 2.30am - the dialog includes a warning that the car could be unusable for an hour or two.
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