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Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

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Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#51

Post by danw1979 »

I’m sure there are some great points in this paper but this bit of un-evidenced bit of speculation turned me off:

> It has been noted that guide dogs working in towns breathe the same pollutants as humans yet do not have asthma. Could this be because when they lie on their chests the kickback from the upper ribs keeps the corresponding vertebrae mobile, allowing the sympathetic system to work efficiently?

Or could it be one of the many other physiological differences between humans and dogs ?

I think the author notes that this is mostly a collection of anecdotal observations, but linking a primarily inflammatory disorder like asthma with musculoskeletal problems is a bit far fetched in my layman’s opinion. Sounds a bit like chiropractic quackery to me.

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#52

Post by throwaway828 »

frereubu wrote: post #50
helboi4 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funnily, as a brit, I have always had the ability to sit in a deep squat comfortably and it's not even from tons of practice. I only even realised that its unusual to be able to do and that it may be good for you when I was about 21. By which point there were many people who couldn't do it already. I certainly hadn't been practicing it throughout my teenage years.

I'm a Brit who can squat too, and I think it has quite a bit to do with not weather shoes at home and wearing "barefoot" shoes / zero-drop trainers outside. I have a hunch that it's lengthened my calf muscles and achilles tendons, which makes squatting much more comfortable. I couldn't really do it before switching to barefoot shoes.

Having lived in Asia for 10 years I observed that I had gained the ability to squat, quite comfortably too, that I never had on arrival.

Funny old world.

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#53

Post by admissionsguy »

To add to the anecdotes, I have been sleeping on a flat rice straw tatami matt (without anything else) for 2 months. It's pretty hard and I have bruises on my ribs, but I have way less back and neck pain than before. I usually fall asleep in position similar to Figures 4 and 5 in the paper.

The reason I started doing this is that after moving to a new house I bought an expensive memory foam mattress which made my back hurt every morning.

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#54

Post by begueradj »

FredrikMeyer wrote: post #7

I find this article quite insubstantial. He lists alternative sleeping positions, but no sources backing up the claim that "western sleeping positions" (whatever that is) are worse. Also only one citation, and that is to back up the claim that there are 200 primates. Nice pictures though - I feel happy that I can sit (relatively) comfortably in the squatting position (as an European).

As a North African, I instinctively understand and firmly believe everything mentioned in this article about sleeping is true.

From my perspective, the way I see your comment is this: give me scientific evidence that walking is beneficial to my health.

We lose our identity when we disconnect from Nature. I even read a post recently here in HN where it was said that "Urban humans have lost much of their ability to digest plants": https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/03/human-gut-bacteria-t...

That's where we are.

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#55

Post by leoedin »

vasco wrote: post #44

> Forest dwellers and nomads suffer fewer musculoskeletal lesions than “civilised” people > I tried to carry out surveys to collect evidence but they were meaningless, as tribespeople give you the answer they think you want. Could they simply have higher thresholds for complaining?

They're also incredibly active compared to any "civilised" people. There's a lot of evidence that sedentary lifestyles are bad for bodies.

Presumably they're also, on average, younger than "civilised" peoples. Life expectancy for an Amazonian Tribe was just 53 years. https://www.sbs.com.au/food/article/how-to-eat-like-an-amazo...

Muscle and joint issues are a symptom of aging. If nobody's making it to 60, then aging really isn't the same issue.

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#56

Post by Notatheist »

safety1st wrote: post #36
twowatches wrote: post #19

I'm fairly sure the cause of back pain is sitting at desks, not the position I'm sleeping in.

I'm skeptical that there's anything especially unhealthy about sitting at a desk even for long periods of time. What's more plausible to me is that back pain comes from having a weak back and it's more about what you're not doing, which is training your back muscles. Over the course of about a year, weight lifting eliminated a range of aches and pains I'd developed throughout adulthood, including back, wrist and knee…

>I'm skeptical that there's anything especially unhealthy about sitting at a desk even for long periods of time. What's more plausible to me is that back pain comes from having a weak back

I figure few habits will give you a weaker back than sitting at a desk for longer periods of time.

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#57

Post by kqr »

leoedin wrote: post #55
vasco wrote: post #44

> Forest dwellers and nomads suffer fewer musculoskeletal lesions than “civilised” people > I tried to carry out surveys to collect evidence but they were meaningless, as tribespeople give you the answer they think you want. Could they simply have higher thresholds for complaining?

They're also incredibly active compared to any "civilised" people. There's a lot of evidence that sedentary lifestyles are bad for bodies. Presumably they're also, on average, younger than "civilised" peoples. Life expectancy for an Amazonian Tribe was just 53 years. https://www.sbs.com.au/food/article/how-to-eat-like-an-amazo... Muscle and joint issues are a symptom of aging. If nobody's making it to 60, then aging…

Life expectancy of 53 does not usually mean nobody makes it to 60. In the early 1900s[1], life expectancy at birth in England was 53, but at the same time, as long as you survived until you were 20, your life expectancy had increased to over 60. If you lived to 50, you could expect to become 70.

https://ourworldindata.org/images/published/Life-expectancy-...

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[1]: Not counting the years of the Spanish flu!

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#58

Post by kqr »

contrarian1234 wrote: post #39

I love sleeping in the "lookout posture". I get very restful sleep. However after a couple of days it leads to a lot of pain in my back. I'm guessing some tendons get overstretched. No idea how to work around it though I should try the reverse with the elbow outward. Seems doable. The Tibetan kneel seems a big too hardcore though :)

I have actually used that Tibetan kneel once! I was exhausted and had to sit on the floor for a while and then I just fell asleep like that. It surprised me enough that I've tried to recreate it but it seems I can only do it when I'm really tired.

Maybe it's a matter of habit and I can learn to do it if I try often enough.

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#59

Post by dmix »

danw1979 wrote: post #51

I’m sure there are some great points in this paper but this bit of un-evidenced bit of speculation turned me off: > It has been noted that guide dogs working in towns breathe the same pollutants as humans yet do not have asthma. Could this be because when they lie on their chests the kickback from the upper ribs keeps the corresponding vertebrae mobile, allowing the sympathetic system to work efficiently? Or could it…

He lists his profession as a physiotherapist so probably crossed into the chiropractic side a bit, some of his personal photos are a little hippy-ish.

The article is also premised on one large appeal to nature (tribal people untainted by modern society do it therefore it is natural and therefore good). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#60

Post by kqr »

saberience wrote: post #29
twowatches wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't understand how anyone can sleep on their back. They snore and can't breathe it's like they're dying it's pretty obviously wrong.

Surprise, surprise, people are different to each other. I pretty much can only sleep on my back, no other positions allow me to fall asleep. Also, I don’t snore. But I’m also very much in shape with no excess weight, snoring is generally correlated with ill health and being overweight.

Worth pointing out the false dichotomy here. I sleep better on my side, but I fall asleep better on my back! So ideally I'd go to bed on my back and then have someone push me over to my side once I'm sleeping...
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