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How web bloat impacts users with slow devices

danluu.com

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Re: How web bloat impacts users with slow devices

#101

Post by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK »

ryukoposting wrote: post #5

I only recently moved from a 6-year old LG flagship phone to a shiny new Galaxy, and the performance difference is staggering. It shouldn't be - that was a very high-end phone at release, it's not that old, and it still works like new. I know it's not just my phone, because the Galaxy S9s I use to test code have the same struggles. I would like to have seen Amazon in the tests. IME Amazon's website is among the absol…

I recently visited Brazil and had my shiny new phone snatched from my hand ... now with my spare 4 years old phone, frankly dont see any difference. But I use Firefox with all the ad blockers, maybe that helps.

Re: How web bloat impacts users with slow devices

#102

Post by goalieca »

bluquark wrote: post #66

Dan's point about being aware of the different levels of inequality in the world is something I strongly agree with, but that should also include the middle-income countries, especially in Latin America and Southeast Asia. For example, a user with a data plan with a monthly limit in the single-digit GBs, and a RAM/CPU profile resembling a decade-old US flagship. That's good enough to use Discourse at all, but the exp…

> For example, a user with a data plan with a monthly limit in the single-digit GBs, and a RAM/CPU profile resembling a decade-old US flagship

I’m in Canada and have a single digit plan and I just upgraded from an almost decade old flagship. Most websites are torture.

Re: How web bloat impacts users with slow devices

#103

Post by genewitch »

jhanoncomm wrote: post #88
bluquark wrote: post #66

Dan's point about being aware of the different levels of inequality in the world is something I strongly agree with, but that should also include the middle-income countries, especially in Latin America and Southeast Asia. For example, a user with a data plan with a monthly limit in the single-digit GBs, and a RAM/CPU profile resembling a decade-old US flagship. That's good enough to use Discourse at all, but the exp…

If all the sites tot more efficient it may also increase longevity of laptops and PCs where unsavvy people might just “need a new computer it is getting slow”. Also applies to bloatware shipped with computers. To the point where I was offered a $50 “tune up” to a new laptop I purchased recently. Imagine a new car dealer offered you that!

I worked at a now-defunct electronics store (not fry's in this instance) in the early 2000s that offered this "tune-up" - it was to remove the stuff that HP and Dell got paid to pre-install, and to fully update windows and whatever else.

Remove the mcafee nuisance popups and any browser "addons" that were badged/branded. and IIRC we charged more than $50 for that service back then.

Re: How web bloat impacts users with slow devices

#104

Post by layer8 »

olliej wrote: post #28
layer8 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not just weak connectivity. I know people in rural areas who still have less than 1 Mbps internet speed over their DSL landline. Using the internet there isn’t a lot of fun.

Which is absurd when you think that the internet used to be usable on 14.4k modems. I remember having to plan to take up hours of time on our phone line to download giant files that were smaller than many basic webpages these days (ignoring things like photos where there's obviously a basic size/quality tradeoff + more pixels)

Yes, 1 Mbps was actually high-speed internet 25 years ago.

Re: How web bloat impacts users with slow devices

#105

Post by goalieca »

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #3

I'm normally a fan of Dan Luu's posts but I felt this one missed the mark. The LCP/CPU table is a good one, but from there the article turns into a bit on armchair psychology. From some random comments coming from Discourse's founder, readers are asked to build up an idea of what attitudes software engineers supposedly have. Even Knuth gets dragged into the mud based on comments he made about single vs multi-core per…

> what attitudes software engineers supposedly have

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a company take performance seriously. No one scoffs when a simple API service for frontend has 500ms response time! How many engineers even know or care how much their cloud bill is?

Re: How web bloat impacts users with slow devices

#106

Post by genewitch »

kome wrote: post #93
lotsofpulp wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the total useful lifetime more than MacBooks with non serviceable components? I see people around me easily using Airs for 5+ years.

My MacBook Air (11-inch, Early 2014) is my only computer. I still don't feel like changing it so far...

i have an Air from 2011 or 2012 that is out of storage with just the OS installed. I can't update or install any other software because the most recent update installed on it capped out the storage. Low-end windows laptops (the $150-$300 at walmart type) have this same issue. 32GB of storage and windows takes 80% of the space, and you can no longer fit a windows update on it.

I still have the air with whatever the macos is, but as soon as i have a minute i'm going to try and get linux or BSD on it. I'm still sore at how little use i got out of that machine - and i got it "open box" "scratch and dent", so it was around $500 with tax. I got triple the usage out of a 2009ish eeePC (netbook)

Re: How web bloat impacts users with slow devices

#107

Post by timeon »

zbrozek wrote: post #100

There's also a huge tendency to design for fast, high quality connectivity. Try using any Google product on airplane wifi. Even just chat loads in minutes-to-never and frequently keels over dead, forcing an outrageously expensive reload. Docs? Good luck. I wish software engineers cared to test in less than ideal conditions. Low speeds, intermittent connectivity, and packet loss are real.

What I find interesting is that design of websites is often 'mobile first' but rarely 'mobile connection first'.

Re: How web bloat impacts users with slow devices

#108

Post by Baguette5242 »

kome wrote: post #93
lotsofpulp wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the total useful lifetime more than MacBooks with non serviceable components? I see people around me easily using Airs for 5+ years.

My MacBook Air (11-inch, Early 2014) is my only computer. I still don't feel like changing it so far...

Amateur… I am using a 2009 15’ MacBook Pro Unibody, with a swapped SuperDrive to SSD, another main SSD and RAM boosted to 8Gb. OpenCore Legacy to update to a relatively recent version of MacOS. The only thing that is so annoying is the webcam that doesn’t work anymore, and a USB port is dead also.

So sad this kind of shenanigans are not possible anymore.

Re: How web bloat impacts users with slow devices

#109

Post by jodrellblank »

jiggawatts wrote: post #95
jodrellblank wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joel Spolsky on Excel bloat, 2001: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2001/03/23/strategy-letter-iv...

The latest version of Excel loads faster on my laptop than most websites do. I’ve timed this. I can load the entire MS Office suite and open a Visual Studio 2022 project in less time then it takes to open a blank Jira web form. What’s your point?

My point is to reply to "State your case that bloat is good" with a famous blog stating a case that bloat is good. Bloat makes the company more money by allowing them to develop and ship faster, bloat makes the company more money by being able to offer more features to more customers (including the advertisers and marketers and etc. side of things), and - well, read the article.

I, too, dislike slow websites and web apps, but I don't think they are some mystery - natural selection isn't selecting for idiot developers, market selection is selecting for tickbox features and with first-mover-advantage they are selecting against "fast but not available for another year and has fewer features and cost more to develop".

Re: How web bloat impacts users with slow devices

#110

Post by ponector »

withinboredom wrote: post #33
efields wrote: post #17

How web bloat impacts users: negatively. Better do your best to fix it. This stuff is simpler than we let it be sometimes, folks.

> This stuff is simpler than we let it be sometimes, folks. Meanwhile watches a team build a cathedral when all they needed was a shack.

Why not to build a cathedral if someone else is paying?

I've never seen companies where developers are rewarded for performance improvement or any kind of improvement. Did an improvement? Nice! Good job! And that's it.

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