Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fight with publishers • Hacker News Board

Re: Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fight with publishers

#141

Post by c0pium » Sat, Mar 16, 2024, 9:45 PM UTC

j_maffe wrote: post #126

c0pium wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you’re proposing would require a literal quantum shift in DRM, where it’s only possible to use a copy of something if that thing hasn’t been itself copied somewhere else. That world would ironically unite the desires of publishers, creators, and actual archivists, leaving only the pirates out in the cold. Whoever figures out how to do that is going to make a fortune.

No you wouldn't. It's not about DRM, it's about the contractual agreements between libraries and publishers. They already track the number of times it's borrowed and for how long. OP is suggesting that it should be dealt with the same as a hard copy, i.e. only one person can borrow it at a time.

Proposing that any rights holder would accept a solution where there is no technical control preventing arbitrary copying is an extraordinary claim which requires extraordinary evidence. I’m not saying it wouldn’t be cool, I’m saying it’s never going to happen.

Secondly, you should reread their post, it’s much broader than your interpretation. They were envisioning a world where the device and copying restrictions we have today don’t exist.

Re: Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fight with publishers

#142

Post by WalterBright » Sat, Mar 16, 2024, 9:47 PM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #86

thaumasiotes wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, the free market is working pretty well. http://libgen.rs/ The government-granted monopoly, not so much.

How is this a market if Boone is paying? If anything, this is communism? You can’t even have a market of IP without government granted ownership of IP. This tired old trope that Government vs market doesn’t work here

> You can’t even have a market of IP without government granted ownership of IP.

Sure you can. See Germany in the 19th century with no IP protections. Business and prosperity boomed!

Consider also the incredible success of open source software.

Re: Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fight with publishers

#143

Post by c0pium » Sat, Mar 16, 2024, 9:49 PM UTC

j_maffe wrote: post #129

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I mean, the free market is working pretty well. > http://libgen.rs/ Exactly. What a lot of economists tend to "forget" is that markets also include black/illegal markets and markets that are hardly controllable by the government.

Unfortunately many are misled to believe that pirating books published by cartels is unethical.

Please explain your alternative mechanism for compensating the author for their work.

Re: Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fight with publishers

#144

Post by c0pium » Sat, Mar 16, 2024, 9:54 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #139

shiandow wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fine, abolish copyright then, let's see what happens.

We know what will happen. Germany had no copyright protections in the 19th century. The country's economy boomed, making Germany the industrial powerhouse of Europe.

Can you expand on this point? Having no copyright being a leading cause of industrial expansion seems pretty tenuous. Especially given that they now have copyright and other countries also had booming economies at about the same time.

Re: Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fight with publishers

#145

Post by elijaht » Sat, Mar 16, 2024, 9:54 PM UTC

j_maffe wrote: post #126

c0pium wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you’re proposing would require a literal quantum shift in DRM, where it’s only possible to use a copy of something if that thing hasn’t been itself copied somewhere else. That world would ironically unite the desires of publishers, creators, and actual archivists, leaving only the pirates out in the cold. Whoever figures out how to do that is going to make a fortune.

No you wouldn't. It's not about DRM, it's about the contractual agreements between libraries and publishers. They already track the number of times it's borrowed and for how long. OP is suggesting that it should be dealt with the same as a hard copy, i.e. only one person can borrow it at a time.

> that it should be dealt with the same as a hard copy, i.e. only one person can borrow it at a time.

That's how it works in every library system I have dealt with

Re: Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fight with publishers

#146

Post by j_maffe » Sat, Mar 16, 2024, 9:54 PM UTC

c0pium wrote: post #141

j_maffe wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you wouldn't. It's not about DRM, it's about the contractual agreements between libraries and publishers. They already track the number of times it's borrowed and for how long. OP is suggesting that it should be dealt with the same as a hard copy, i.e. only one person can borrow it at a time.

Proposing that any rights holder would accept a solution where there is no technical control preventing arbitrary copying is an extraordinary claim which requires extraordinary evidence. I’m not saying it wouldn’t be cool, I’m saying it’s never going to happen. Secondly, you should reread their post, it’s much broader than your interpretation. They were envisioning a world where the device and copying restrictions we…

I'm not sure we're on the same page. How do you think libraries loan out ebooks, currently? DRM for this exact functionality is already implemented by most publishers

Re: Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fight with publishers

#147

Post by j_maffe » Sat, Mar 16, 2024, 10:00 PM UTC

c0pium wrote: post #143

j_maffe wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately many are misled to believe that pirating books published by cartels is unethical.

Please explain your alternative mechanism for compensating the author for their work.

I'm not proposing an alternative mechanism. I think people who can comfortably afford to pay the asked price for a book should of course do just that. On the other hand, for the billions of those who do not have that privilege, I wholeheartedly recommend piracy. It is of no cost to the author/publisher (since they weren't going to pay anyway) and of tremendous positive impact for equality and social mobility for the community. In a perfect world piracy would be an unfair and unnecessary venture. In this one, for many people it is absolutely justified.

Re: Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fight with publishers

#148

Post by wolverine876 » Sat, Mar 16, 2024, 10:08 PM UTC

The answer may be to change copyright law to allow book owners to freely shift mediums (I forget the term for it, but converting a paper book to PDF by scanning, or vice versa by printing), and to restrict the ability to lease everything - you buy it, you own it (a debate older than this issue, and there's term for that too).

Then I could donate my book to the library, they could scan it (or buy a scanned copy), and as long as they restricted checkouts based on the number of copies, they'd be fine.

The Internet Archive seems to do something similar, though it seems to be an issue in the courts. I wonder if libraries could donate their books to IA and direct patrons there for electronic versions.

Re: Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fight with publishers

#149

Post by j_maffe » Sat, Mar 16, 2024, 10:15 PM UTC

elijaht wrote: post #145

j_maffe wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you wouldn't. It's not about DRM, it's about the contractual agreements between libraries and publishers. They already track the number of times it's borrowed and for how long. OP is suggesting that it should be dealt with the same as a hard copy, i.e. only one person can borrow it at a time.

> that it should be dealt with the same as a hard copy, i.e. only one person can borrow it at a time. That's how it works in every library system I have dealt with

Yeah same but as the article states, there are extra terms in the agreement such as a maximum of 26 loans and a two-year renewal, whichever comes first. And the ebook is usually 4 times more expensive than the physical one just for that period. It should be treated just like a hard copy in all these manners.

Re: Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fight with publishers

#150

Post by cubecul » Sat, Mar 16, 2024, 10:17 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #124

How about eliminating libraries and provide vouchers for Kindle Unlimited for the poor? Work with Amazon to create some kind of Amazon library using Kindle as the platform. People with money don’t need public libraries — you can buy pretty much anything easily. People spend $18 on a McDonalds meal, $9.99 for an ebook is nothing. Big city libraries are mostly homeless shelters at this point. I’m not going to a public…

I am on the commission overseeing a major public library system. I strongly disagree with your interpretation of what libraries do.

First, the real estate presence of the library is extremely important. Children's storytime is one of the strongest drivers of foot traffic. Some of the buildings act as designated cooling centers during heat waves. They are community centers and gathering spaces for local organizations.

Also, just because you can spend $10 on an ebook does not mean others would choose to do the same! That's important money to many people.

Otherwise, here are some other things I've seen libraries do that I think your comment underestimates:

- supplies reading materials to jailed inmates

- helps new residents navigate city services

- manages the city archives

- provides wifi access for the 10%+ of a big city that does not have wifi at home

- gives free books to build book collections at home

- loans tools and other "maker" equipment

Not all libraries are funded well enough to do the above, and the specific definition of a library in 2024 is very hard to nail down - basically converges on a community center.

All I'm saying is that libraries are making concerted efforts to break out of the traditional definition ("gatekeeper of information") - you should check out your local library to see all that they do!