Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

greglukianoff.substack.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 126 posts

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#111

Post by hotdogscout »

komali2 wrote: post #106
putzdown wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not clear to me that either political “side” has the corner on these faults. But even if they did, why not allow audiences to make their own judgments? Universities don’t have to provide auditoriums or catering. They shouldn’t have to provide extra security, if free speech is honored by students. Why can’t listeners simply walk away? I truly don’t understand.

Conversely, why aren't you respecting the free speech rights of students to speak out against people sharing hateful ideologies on their campus? (Ben Shapiro coming to spread transphobia for example) For decades we've tolerated anti-woman's-rights activists shoving pictures of medical procedures into people's faces, and preachers telling students they're going to go to hell for being gay. That's ok, but protesting a…

>Shove fetus pictures into people's faces? No problem! Strap on swastikas and March through town? Police escort!

If it's really no problem try doing it. You're not being realistic about the consequences of being disruptive.

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#112

Post by hotdogscout »

komali2 wrote: post #103
hotdogscout wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I think it's sociologically healthy for our species that people with ugly, hateful ideologies face as much resistance as possible, in many forms, all the time." I really don't think I'm being unfair in saying that comment implies the deplatformed people are vile. Given the context of the article what other group could be the "people with ugly, hateful ideologies" if not the deplatformed speakers?

I don't know too much about this woman so I scoped her Twitter feed https://x.com/XVanFleet/status/1768375317695996395?s=20 > Chinese conservative author Yu Jie @yujie89 offers a profile of anti-Trump Chinese “influencers”, both outside and inside China: > They are mostly left-wingers and supporters of BLM. > They are mostly atheists. > They are mostly favored guests/commentators of Chinese language MSM. > Among them…

>Conflating leftist ideology with BLM when BLM is explicitly a movement against excessive police violence against black people is funny - kinda says the quiet part out loud about what conservatives represent.

Would you conflate BLM with the Republican Party? This is a quiet part?

>You can't "win in the marketplace of ideals" against these people with rigorous logic and spirited debate, if you could, they wouldn't exist, because their entire belief system depends on cognitive fallacy.

I think you don't understand how inherently axiomatic the logic of political positions are.

Just for fun: I counted four cognitive fallacies in your post.

Sweeping generalizations (conservatives ...),

ad hominem attacks (by labeling the author as a "typical American right-wing talk show political grifter" without addressing the substance of her arguments),

false dichotomies (by implying that engaging with her viewpoints through "rigorous logic and spirited debate" is ineffective and that protest is the only viable response)

and confirmation bias (dismissing the possibility of engaging with the her arguments in good faith and assuming that the only reason for their presence is to engage in divisive tactics).

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#113

Post by defrost »

hotdogscout wrote: post #112
komali2 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know too much about this woman so I scoped her Twitter feed https://x.com/XVanFleet/status/1768375317695996395?s=20 > Chinese conservative author Yu Jie @yujie89 offers a profile of anti-Trump Chinese “influencers”, both outside and inside China: > They are mostly left-wingers and supporters of BLM. > They are mostly atheists. > They are mostly favored guests/commentators of Chinese language MSM. > Among them…

>Conflating leftist ideology with BLM when BLM is explicitly a movement against excessive police violence against black people is funny - kinda says the quiet part out loud about what conservatives represent. Would you conflate BLM with the Republican Party? This is a quiet part? >You can't "win in the marketplace of ideals" against these people with rigorous logic and spirited debate, if you could, they wouldn't exi…

\1 komali2 asserting that Yu Jie @yujie89 has conflated leftist ideology with BLM

is not equivilant to

\2 komali2 conflating BLM with the Republican Party.

> Point one cognitive fallacy

Anyone claiming the above propositions to be equivilant has made a fallacy.

Those implying that \2 because \1 are either making a fallacy or delibrately strawmaning.

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#114

Post by hotdogscout »

defrost wrote: post #113
hotdogscout wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Conflating leftist ideology with BLM when BLM is explicitly a movement against excessive police violence against black people is funny - kinda says the quiet part out loud about what conservatives represent. Would you conflate BLM with the Republican Party? This is a quiet part? >You can't "win in the marketplace of ideals" against these people with rigorous logic and spirited debate, if you could, they wouldn't exi…

\1 komali2 asserting that Yu Jie @yujie89 has conflated leftist ideology with BLM is not equivilant to \2 komali2 conflating BLM with the Republican Party. > Point one cognitive fallacy Anyone claiming the above propositions to be equivilant has made a fallacy. Those implying that \2 because \1 are either making a fallacy or delibrately strawmaning.

"\1 komali2 asserting that Yu Jie @yujie89 has conflated leftist ideology with BLM

is not equivilant to

\2 komali2 conflating BLM with the Republican Party."

I'm aware, I don't think komali2 thinks the Republican Party supports BLM. (?)

"Anyone claiming..." Should be relevant when someone claims that I suppose.

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#115

Post by komali2 »

hotdogscout wrote: post #111
komali2 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conversely, why aren't you respecting the free speech rights of students to speak out against people sharing hateful ideologies on their campus? (Ben Shapiro coming to spread transphobia for example) For decades we've tolerated anti-woman's-rights activists shoving pictures of medical procedures into people's faces, and preachers telling students they're going to go to hell for being gay. That's ok, but protesting a…

>Shove fetus pictures into people's faces? No problem! Strap on swastikas and March through town? Police escort! If it's really no problem try doing it. You're not being realistic about the consequences of being disruptive.

I'm not being realistic? You speaking from personal experience? Because I've been to many, many, protests, and I think I have a very good idea of the consequences of being disruptive, with the literal scars to show for it.

I watched proud boys march with police escort. I dealt with people shaking fetus pictures in my face the third Friday of every month for four years when I'm just trying to get to the library.

I witnessed firsthand the system's indifference or hostility to leftist protesting: the violence and arrests we faced at peaceful BLM sit-ins when proud boys meanwhile are allowed to walk around armed and shouting racial slurs at people.

What personal experience are you drawing on to deny what I'm describing? What evidence?

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#116

Post by komali2 »

hotdogscout wrote: post #112
komali2 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know too much about this woman so I scoped her Twitter feed https://x.com/XVanFleet/status/1768375317695996395?s=20 > Chinese conservative author Yu Jie @yujie89 offers a profile of anti-Trump Chinese “influencers”, both outside and inside China: > They are mostly left-wingers and supporters of BLM. > They are mostly atheists. > They are mostly favored guests/commentators of Chinese language MSM. > Among them…

>Conflating leftist ideology with BLM when BLM is explicitly a movement against excessive police violence against black people is funny - kinda says the quiet part out loud about what conservatives represent. Would you conflate BLM with the Republican Party? This is a quiet part? >You can't "win in the marketplace of ideals" against these people with rigorous logic and spirited debate, if you could, they wouldn't exi…

> without addressing the substance of her arguments

The point of grifters is to overwhelm with insubstantial arguments. Do your fun game to her Twitter feed. See how long you can keep it up. Better yet: see if you can put a dent in her or her follower's belief system by totally pwning her with rigorous logic.

Double standard: you picked apart my post and didn't acknowledge a thing about the tweet I quoted. Do you disagree that it shares the traits of most right wing grifters engaging in culture war rage baiting?

Someone else put it well: racism is illogical and dependent on cognitive fallacy to be maintained. Easily dismissed if you address the "substance" of a racist's arguments. So why then is there still racism? Are the racists right? No, obviously not, so must be something else.

> Would you conflate BLM with the Republican Party? This is a quiet part?

I don't understand what you mean by this. I mean it's very interesting to me that a conservative would imply BLM is a leftist movement, in a country where the right wing is conflated with a form of psuedo-anarchy in the form of American libertarians, whose most famous hero is a man who ironically stood up to a different BLM and led an armed standoff with the federal government.

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#117

Post by komali2 »

ecmascript wrote: post #108
komali2 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you opposed to the student's right to free speech? Why are you automatically giving Milo more freedom of speech rights?

I don't understand how you suggest I am opposed to it. I am not giving anyone more or less freedom of speech rights lol.

Protesting is a form of speech. If Milo is going to be mic'd up by my university to spew his rage bait, how is my shouting from the crowd a less valid form of speech? Unless you believe the institutional bureaucratic process of putting him on that stage automatically lends him more validity, in which case I highly recommend reading some Hannah Arendt

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#118

Post by hotdogscout »

komali2 wrote: post #115
hotdogscout wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Shove fetus pictures into people's faces? No problem! Strap on swastikas and March through town? Police escort! If it's really no problem try doing it. You're not being realistic about the consequences of being disruptive.

I'm not being realistic? You speaking from personal experience? Because I've been to many, many, protests, and I think I have a very good idea of the consequences of being disruptive, with the literal scars to show for it. I watched proud boys march with police escort. I dealt with people shaking fetus pictures in my face the third Friday of every month for four years when I'm just trying to get to the library. I wit…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Duncan_Lemp

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_of_Aaron_Danielson_...

https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/14/virginia-sho...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/14/us/steve-scalise-congress...

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/capitol-breached-protesters/...

I ask for minimal perspective towards people you feel contempt. I'd say the same to someone claiming left wing protests are easy and leftists have "no problem" participating in them. It's just not true.

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#119

Post by hotdogscout »

komali2 wrote: post #116
hotdogscout wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Conflating leftist ideology with BLM when BLM is explicitly a movement against excessive police violence against black people is funny - kinda says the quiet part out loud about what conservatives represent. Would you conflate BLM with the Republican Party? This is a quiet part? >You can't "win in the marketplace of ideals" against these people with rigorous logic and spirited debate, if you could, they wouldn't exi…

> without addressing the substance of her arguments The point of grifters is to overwhelm with insubstantial arguments. Do your fun game to her Twitter feed. See how long you can keep it up. Better yet: see if you can put a dent in her or her follower's belief system by totally pwning her with rigorous logic. Double standard: you picked apart my post and didn't acknowledge a thing about the tweet I quoted. Do you dis…

>racism is illogical and dependent on cognitive fallacy to be maintained.

Can you explain why it's illogical and what fallacy it's maintained on?

I don't think I can logically claim torturing babies is wrong without some arbitrary axioms but you must have some killer logic I don't.

>Double standard: you picked apart my post and didn't acknowledge a thing about the tweet I quoted.

I did though (?). She said something that almost nobody denies, that BLM is associated more with the left, and you went on about what that entails but I see nothing untrue about what she said about that correlation.

I think you confuse logic with morality.

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#120

Post by major505 »

bloopernova wrote: post #89
major505 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you call bodily autonomy cant be easily defined like that. What you dont tolerate is not up to you to decide if they can be silenced. And look Im not telling I dont agree with you in many of this topics. ISt just that is easy to not listen and thing you are an iluminated person because you think the way you think.

I know 2 women whose lives were ruined because they were raped during their teenage years by men 7+ years older who got them drunk. They were forced to not get an abortion, and instead had to raise the child as a single parent. These women were greatly impacted mentally and emotionally, deeply resented their children, and had to give up their dreams. These women weren't "sluts who deserved it", they were both 15 year…

Yet, you could easily say you are ok with abortion in cases of rape or in cases of life threats to the the morther, with I do agree, are exceptions that everyone should make.

But still try to voice as bodily autonomy... whith lets be honest here, is easy to dismiss for someone who considers a fetus is a humna that needs to be protected.

You just making the argument to yourself .

Post reply on HN