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Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

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Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many cases it could truly be that programmers aren't worth enough for them to pony up. It isn't that they're being cheap. It's that it doesn't make financial sense. There are plenty of contexts where programmers are useful but still only worth "normal" salaries.

Or, perhaps many companies do not know how to leverage software to make money. I suspect there are many of those sorts out there, and if they do have developers on staff, it makes sense to let them go.

Both are true, I think. Many business stand to gain very little from money. Others could gain a tremendous amount, but they don't know enough to see how.

A great example is my friend who works for a provincial political party. It's clear that they would be able to compete with other parties on many levels if they were more technically capable, and someone on staff being paid a lot to facilitate that would be well worth it. They'd almost certainly secure more donations, learn to reach their demographics better by utilizing data properly, work far more efficiently, and so on. My friend is acutely aware of this and how technology is currently impeding them, but the rest of the organization is more like vaguely aware of this yet almost entirely uncertain of what to do about it.

If they were to pay someone with significant software experience around $200,000 per year to untangle and revamp the technology they're depending on, they'd certainly see this paying dividends within a couple of years. Instead they will carry on encumbered. They currently spend around $38,000 per year on software that's serving them partially and otherwise weighing them down substantially.

Part of the problem they face too is that they'd need to hire someone who truly gets the politics and people involved. You couldn't bring someone into that scenario who loves the IC role. There would be a lot of white boarding and explaining to stakeholders. A lot of very mundane untangling of existing services accomplished by digging through accounts and billing, talking to the people who use it, documenting how they use it, why, figuring out what they forgot to tell you, etc. Then the very dissatisfying step of determining solutions which can't be totally bespoke or custom, but would inevitably involve some degree of compromise. It wouldn't be a glamorous role. It could transform the capability and velocity of the organization, though.

I often think this is exactly the type of role which software developers will tend to move into as AI takes on more low-level IC tasks. I don't expect that to be tomorrow, but very likely within the next decade. Software developers will need to be far more people-oriented than they tend to be today in order to allow their skills to shine in ways an AI's can't.

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#322

So, as a 56yo who's been programming professionally since 2004, currently having trouble finding enough contract work, a bit of perspective: When there are more openings than qualified people, even when you reduce qualifications to what is actually necessary, it seems like there's "nobody" available. Now, when the shoe is on the other foot, it seems like "nobody" is hiring. It's harsh, but it also doesn't take that m…

Good observation. A few of my previous employers simply stopped hiring in house developers. They feel more comfortable relying on either outside vendors or off the shelf software. One reason is the lack of available talent to come in and support legacy in-house software. Maybe that trend will reverse or slow a bit. So much of the off the shelf software is overpriced and inflexible.

Also, "off the shelf" often comes to mean "a proprietary, poorly documented and clunky framework or programming language, disguised as an application".

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#323
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New hiring process: sample 600 people from the population at random, administer IQ tests, hire highest scorer. Voila, only geniuses!

Is there any evidence that would be worse than the way we're doing it now??

Literal random hiring would probably be better than what the industry does now.

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#324
post #120
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same situation on the hiring side. I understand that people gotta hustle to eat, but we get hundreds of applications, and so many resumes are fake and just an attempt to get through the screening... plus lots of cheating, sometimes just good old ChatGPT or someone whispering behind the screen, other times with people giving perfect memorized answers but not a peep when I go off script. Makes me want to hold on to thi…

> So many resumes are fake Its a classic vicious circle: if your resume gets auto-dinged if it doesn't have the right keywords, applicants are highly motivated do lard up their resumes with keywords. And then the companies observe they are getting tons of bogus resumes, and they think they can fix it by making the filters even harder to get through.... Everybody is incentivized to race to the bottom.

I have argued a variation of this so many times before. There are a lot of feedback loops amplifying noise in software job markets. It's terrible for everyone involved.

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

God forbid you wish to start a family in Seattle without your partner making bank

What makes you so special? This is merely an entitled rant made by a surplus elite that has finally realized they're not very elite if conditions aren't absolutely perfectly in their favor. The real elite look inward and improve themselves. Only the pathetic, mediocre, and unimpressive point their fingers outward. 99% of the US population has it 10x harder and still manages to raise good kids. I can see why most peop…

Have you seen the family formation rates recently? Way more people are deciding against kids now, with costs and salary not keeping up being usually the major factor… and this is across the board, not just tech

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many cases it could truly be that programmers aren't worth enough for them to pony up. It isn't that they're being cheap. It's that it doesn't make financial sense. There are plenty of contexts where programmers are useful but still only worth "normal" salaries.

Or, perhaps many companies do not know how to leverage software to make money. I suspect there are many of those sorts out there, and if they do have developers on staff, it makes sense to let them go.

I strongly doubt that manufacturing companies can, in principle, offer FAANG-level salaries without dramatically altering their output prices.

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many more companies prefer hiring you all remote now, at the cost of local US remote workers Happy for you all but again it’s come at the cost of local US remote workers… the chickens have come home to roost of the WFH movement

Many good things for you guys have come at the cost of us third worlders for many decades, what do you expect me to say?

That’s fair. Was just pointing out the viewpoint. We’re all just along for the ride to the ebbs and flows of history at the end of the day. Good times and hard times come and go for different groups at different times.

I think it should be fine to say “good for you, but sucks for me”, and have empathy towards groups that have the rug pulled from under them

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#328

So, as a 56yo who's been programming professionally since 2004, currently having trouble finding enough contract work, a bit of perspective: When there are more openings than qualified people, even when you reduce qualifications to what is actually necessary, it seems like there's "nobody" available. Now, when the shoe is on the other foot, it seems like "nobody" is hiring. It's harsh, but it also doesn't take that m…

"There is no kind way to put this: a lot of stupid stuff got done with a lot of smart programmers in the last ten years." Any reasonable person would agree, but would the people in Silicon Valley agree.

13 years ago, Silicon Valley programmers were complaining about just this.

>“The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads,” he says. “That sucks.”

It was cliched seven years ago: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/06/12/click/

It's the incentive structures that keep them in those jobs.

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you so special? This is merely an entitled rant made by a surplus elite that has finally realized they're not very elite if conditions aren't absolutely perfectly in their favor. The real elite look inward and improve themselves. Only the pathetic, mediocre, and unimpressive point their fingers outward. 99% of the US population has it 10x harder and still manages to raise good kids. I can see why most peop…

Have you seen the family formation rates recently? Way more people are deciding against kids now, with costs and salary not keeping up being usually the major factor… and this is across the board, not just tech

Over the last several decades society has removed every incentive for a young, educated, financially stable man to start a family. There's tremendous downside risk, and very little upside. Then there are those that want to start a family, but can't because of finances. I don't have any solutions.

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many cases it could truly be that programmers aren't worth enough for them to pony up. It isn't that they're being cheap. It's that it doesn't make financial sense. There are plenty of contexts where programmers are useful but still only worth "normal" salaries.

Not only that, but how do explain to your shift supervisor or head of sales that a JavaScript wielding kid right out of college makes more than them?

Why tell them? Isn't it a basic principle that companies try to keep salaries secret?
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