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Deleting Software I Wrote Upon Leaving Employment of a Company

law.stackexchange.com

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Re: Deleting Software I Wrote Upon Leaving Employment of a Company

#31
post #2

IANAL, but "would it be legal for me to delete..." is the completely wrong approach here. Instead... - You were an hourly warehouse flunky, not any sort of professional programmer. While doing your warehouse job, you cobbled together a mish-mash of software stuff, on company computers, to try to make your job easier. With you there to fiddle and debug and update as needed, that worked pretty darn well. - Now, you are…

IAAL but likely not in your jurisdiction, and I agree with this, because the biggest "legal" concern I would have as the linked OP is the company coming back and blaming me for some software I wrote that was out of my job scope entirely.

I would add that the goal isn't just to convince the company to delete the software, but rather to acknowledge and accept that there is no support, no warranty, and if things go wrong it's on their hands.

Re: Deleting Software I Wrote Upon Leaving Employment of a Company

#32
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The creator in that case is the company. It defaults to them.

In California, it depends on whether you used equipment that belonged to your employer or not. In this case, a computer.

You're also legally bound not to compete with your company. You can't work for Google and build a search engine "on your own time". you can't work for Nintendo and make a game on the side.

What it means to compete will be decided by judges and lawyers in the gray areas but probably not hard to imagine clearly problem areas and likely not problem areas. If you want to know for sure, ask a lawyer and get a contract/letter from your employer to clarify.

Re: Deleting Software I Wrote Upon Leaving Employment of a Company

#33
The top comment is interesting:

> If you wrote this software during your working time (nine to five), and were paid for that time, then the company owns the software.

I don't live in the US, but copyright laws are quite homogeneous world wide. But I do have the impression that copyright is kept as long as it is not signed over.

given that the person did logistics without an employment contract, he could notice the company that he retracts all rights to use the software wrote.

Of cause that would cause havoc to the company, and they could probably counter sue that he did something incurring the liability that he was never asked to.

Re: Deleting Software I Wrote Upon Leaving Employment of a Company

#34

It's more likely it'll work out like how a situation recently worked out at my employer. We had an employee that was too impatient to set up an internal AWS resource using the more time-consuming channels, so he set it up in our hack-stuff AWS account under his own user account. Our teams found it useful, and began to rely on it. He got laid off. Ops deleted all his user-related stuff, including accidentally deleting…

This is a CISO's nightmare fuel. Shadow IT is a real pain, consisting of systems with no ownership, no control, and possibly a tight link with the inner IT system.

And the majority of this is only exacerbated by the complexity of the decision-making process.

Re: Deleting Software I Wrote Upon Leaving Employment of a Company

#35

It's more likely it'll work out like how a situation recently worked out at my employer. We had an employee that was too impatient to set up an internal AWS resource using the more time-consuming channels, so he set it up in our hack-stuff AWS account under his own user account. Our teams found it useful, and began to rely on it. He got laid off. Ops deleted all his user-related stuff, including accidentally deleting…

> too impatient to set up an internal AWS resource using the more time-consuming channels

Those are by far the worst software devs, not understanding the implications of their actions. But also that his manager didn't catch up this mishap

Re: Deleting Software I Wrote Upon Leaving Employment of a Company

#36

The top comment is interesting: > If you wrote this software during your working time (nine to five), and were paid for that time, then the company owns the software. I don't live in the US, but copyright laws are quite homogeneous world wide. But I do have the impression that copyright is kept as long as it is not signed over. given that the person did logistics without an employment contract, he could notice the co…

It's important to separate copyright, right of use and ownership. In Europe, copyrights are often not transferable: you will have forever written that line after all. What is transferable, and implicit or explicit in a work contract, is the right of use. Usually the employer has and exclusive right to use, and usually they won't relinquish it upon your leave.

Re: Deleting Software I Wrote Upon Leaving Employment of a Company

#38

It's more likely it'll work out like how a situation recently worked out at my employer. We had an employee that was too impatient to set up an internal AWS resource using the more time-consuming channels, so he set it up in our hack-stuff AWS account under his own user account. Our teams found it useful, and began to rely on it. He got laid off. Ops deleted all his user-related stuff, including accidentally deleting…

That's what I was thinking. If he leaves, they probably won't replace him in the same capacity and what he wrote will bitrot.

Re: Deleting Software I Wrote Upon Leaving Employment of a Company

#39
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was written on site during work hours to facilitate assigned work, it'd be uphill battle to argue it wasn't work peformed for the employer.

However copyright assignment still defaults to the creator, so it's still worth asking whether there were IP assignment clauses in the employment contract.

You're quite wrong about copyright assignment as it pertains to "works for hire".

> If a work is made for hire, the employer or the party that specially ordered or commissioned that work is the initial owner of the copyright in the work unless the employer or the commissioning party has signed a written agreement to the contrary with the work's creator. For legal purposes, when a work is a “work made for hire,” the author is not the individual who actually created the work. Instead, the party that hired the individual is considered both the author and the copyright owner of the work.

I fail to see how doing this during hours you are paid by the company, on their equipment, and for their specific operations...wouldn't be considered a "work for hire" in copyright law.[0] The VAST majority of work done by salaried professionals during work hours, at work, which can even remotely be demonstrated to benefit the employer...is a "work for hire". IP assignment agreements are redundant, and mostly only "needed" to prevent employees from trying to claim they did it all after hours, outside of work, using zero inside information they knew from working their day job. It's generally trivially easy to show that some of the development occurred during work, on work computers, at work, using inside knowledge of the company (trade secrets).

> Section 101 of the Copyright Act defines a “work made for hire” as A) A work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her employment, or B) A work specially ordered or commissioned for use if the parties expressly agree in a written instrument signed by them that the work shall be con- sidered a work made for hire.

Question 1: Was the work created by an employee?

Yes? Proceed to Question 2.

Question 2: Did the employee create the work while acting within the scope of employment?

Yes? The work is a work made for hire.

This seems to fall under (A). If the "bright-line" tests for (A) fail to affirmatively answer the question, then the totality of circumstances are considered via questions such as:

> Where was the work created? Did the hiring party provide the space, materials, or tools to create the work? Was the work created as part of the regular business hours of the hiring party? Was the work created during the creator’s authorized work time? How long was the relationship between the parties? Did the hiring party have the right to assign other projects besides the one under review? Could the hiring party direct the creator when and how long to work? How was the creator paid? Did the hiring party offer employee benefits? Did the hiring party remove taxes from the creator’s pay? Does the creator have his or her own business? Was the creator able to hire and pay assistants? Was the work created pursuant to the creator’s usual tasks? What skill was required to create the work?

0: https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ30.pdf

Re: Deleting Software I Wrote Upon Leaving Employment of a Company

#40
post #35

It's more likely it'll work out like how a situation recently worked out at my employer. We had an employee that was too impatient to set up an internal AWS resource using the more time-consuming channels, so he set it up in our hack-stuff AWS account under his own user account. Our teams found it useful, and began to rely on it. He got laid off. Ops deleted all his user-related stuff, including accidentally deleting…

> too impatient to set up an internal AWS resource using the more time-consuming channels Those are by far the worst software devs, not understanding the implications of their actions. But also that his manager didn't catch up this mishap

It’s quite possible they understood but didn’t have loyalty to the company.
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